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[Poll]
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Provocatively dressed women
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| Provocative dress causes rape. |
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| Provocative dress is one of many risk factors. |
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| Provacative dress is never a risk factor. |
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Total Votes : 27
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(last vote on : 12/20/2008 10:48:15 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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Provocatively dressed women - 11/19/2008 8:58:03 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3660
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In this thread in M & E the women have almost been in complete agreement that dressing provocatively in itself does not in any way increase a woman's risk to be raped.
In the extreme, they have said:
"Yes, but if he's already looking for a victim he's thinking less about her clothing and more about the opportunity to carry out the act. And if he's looking for a victim in a strip club it's because he believes he can find a potentially easy target there. I'm not condoning the behavior of a woman enticing a man in a strip club. She places herself at greater risk of becoming a target by the nature of her work, not because of what she's wearing."
To be clear, this is not about blaming a woman for being raped. I believe strongly that rape is always a crime regardless of whether a woman has engaged in any behavior that may have increased her risk. The point of this poll is not to blame any woman for being raped.
< Message edited by benelchi -- 11/19/2008 9:06:39 AM >
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/19/2008 9:06:00 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3660
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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My position on this as, as my vote reflects, is that when a woman chooses to dress provocatively she does increase her chances of becoming a target of rape. It is one of many risk factors, but it is never the primary factor, and in some rapes it is not a factor at all. I believe provocative dress is a far bigger factor in "date rape" and nearly non-existent in the random attack on the street rape. Behaviors like drinking, drugs, going places alone with strange men are far more significant factors than dressing provocatively.
That being said, I find it completely ludicrous to believe:
1) Rapists are not attracted to a provocatively dressed woman.
2) Sexual attraction is 0% of a factor in every rape.
< Message edited by benelchi -- 11/19/2008 9:12:53 AM >
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/19/2008 9:31:48 AM
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John_O
Posts: 8031
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
My position on this as, as my vote reflects, is that when a woman chooses to dress provocatively she does increase her chances of becoming a target of rape. It is one of many risk factors, but it is never the primary factor, and in some rapes it is not a factor at all. I believe provocative dress is a far bigger factor in "date rape" and nearly non-existent in the random attack on the street rape. Behaviors like drinking, drugs, going places alone with strange men are far more significant factors than dressing provocatively.
That being said, I find it completely ludicrous to believe:
1) Rapists are not attracted to a provocatively dressed woman.
2) Sexual attraction is 0% of a factor in every rape.
If you put the bait out there long enough someone's going to bite. Especially since most provactive clothing is also easily removed (ripped off etc). So we have a situation where she is packaged to look most appealing and she is easily unwrapped.
I vote "Yes, provocative clothing is a factor"
I also agree with your findings above.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/19/2008 9:32:20 AM
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mrtigger
Posts: 320
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I suspect this thread might get closed down since it is talking about the same topic as another thread..
I didn't take this poll and didn't participate in the other thread cause I simply don't know much about rape. I'm not a rapist nor have I spent any time working with rapists (at least as far as I know). So I really don't know what motivates them to do what they do.
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mr tigger
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/19/2008 9:37:24 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3660
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
I suspect this thread might get closed down since it is talking about the same topic as another thread..
I hope you are wrong because I started this in the Men only section for a reason. I hope that the forums people understand that the new thread was started so that men could talk about this topic without being attracted and maligned by the women.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/19/2008 9:38:05 AM
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Qtman
Posts: 9446
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From: Crimson Tide Country
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Benelchi I voted in the poll. The way it is worded I voted that yes dress is one of many factors.
What I wish is that you had posted word for word your second post in this thread in the did she ask for it thread in M&E. I know you said all those things but it was in different post. I think if you had said it like you did here in one post there would have been less confusion. I thought I understood what you were saying and I said so over there. I hate to see my friends so upset with one another over what is most likely just a misunderstanding. You remain one of my most respected friends on these forums and I hope all of this will not keep you away from the threads you normally post in.
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STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/19/2008 9:53:03 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3660
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From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Benelchi I voted in the poll. The way it is worded I voted that yes dress is one of many factors.
What I wish is that you had posted word for word your second post in this thread in the did she ask for it thread in M&E. I know you said all those things but it was in different post. I think if you had said it like you did here in one post there would have been less confusion. I thought I understood what you were saying and I said so over there. I hate to see my friends so upset with one another over what is most likely just a misunderstanding. You remain one of my most respected friends on these forums and I hope all of this will not keep you away from the threads you normally post in.
I very much appreciate your posts both here and in the other thread. The reason I didn't put these all together in one single post in the other thread, is I never anticipated the reaction I got over there, and frankly don't understand it. I tried very hard to clearly articulate each of these issues as they came up in the thread, but it really did not seem to matter at all what I said over there. Personally, I think think that much of the negative reaction I got had nothing to do with the topic, but resulted because I challenged the idea that a woman should be allowed to dress as she pleases. For the record, I really do (as I said in the other thread) understand the difficulties at agreeing on a standard for modesty. I personally don't even know exactly where I would draw the lines, myself. I know that when I was addressing this with my daughter I saw a lot of stuff about how to dress in style and still exercise modesty put out by several ministries, and many of these ideas were strongly promoted by Barlow Girl; what they put out seemed reasonable to me. I also know that immodest dress is a huge problem in the church today, and it is troubling that women don't seem to see that.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/19/2008 10:29:05 AM
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mrtigger
Posts: 320
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
I very much appreciate your posts both here and in the other thread. The reason I didn't put these all together in one single post in the other thread, is I never anticipated the reaction I got over there, and frankly don't understand it.
Rape & sexual assault is an extremely sensitive topic to women particularly. It is something I don't think we as men can really ever understand it in the same way that women do.
I know some guys do get raped but it's not something we typically have to worry about much. OTH it's a concern to women every day of their life. We don't intuitively get that cause it's not our own experience.
I think men do get to have a say on the topic but it's so volatile, the threads on it almost always turns into flamers. I don't go into those topics but if you do, you have to be very careful in how you phrase what you are saying. Emotions get real high real quick and if there is anyway that your words can be interpreted badly, it will. Like QTMan, I think some of the flak you got was from misunderstanding of rather than actual objection to what you were saying.
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mr tigger
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/19/2008 10:42:02 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3660
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrtigger
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
I very much appreciate your posts both here and in the other thread. The reason I didn't put these all together in one single post in the other thread, is I never anticipated the reaction I got over there, and frankly don't understand it.
Rape & sexual assault is an extremely sensitive topic to women particularly. It is something I don't think we as men can really ever understand it in the same way that women do.
I know some guys do get raped but it's not something we typically have to worry about much. OTH it's a concern to women every day of their life. We don't intuitively get that cause it's not our own experience.
I think men do get to have a say on the topic but it's so volatile, the threads on it almost always turns into flamers. I don't go into those topics but if you do, you have to be very careful in how you phrase what you are saying. Emotions get real high real quick and if there is anyway that your words can be interpreted badly, it will. Like QTMan, I think some of the flak you got was from misunderstanding of rather than actual objection to what you were saying.
I agree with you to a point, but as much as men (as I have readily admitted) will never fully understand the impact of rape, woman also will never fully understand the impact that a provocatively dressed woman has on a man (even on men who choose not to sin because of it). Since most rapists are men, I do think men have a little more insight about the possible motives than does the average woman. The insight that women validly have about rape is how it relates to the impact in a woman's life. I should understand (and I do) that a woman is going to be able to speak to that issue with far more authority than I can as a man, but a woman should also respect the fact that men have a better insight into the workings of a male mind than do women. Unfortunately, many women in that thread have demonstrated in that they do not.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/19/2008 11:43:55 AM
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evryknee
Posts: 299
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I voted for never a risk factor. Rape if often about power. A rapist may scope out it's victims by age, hair, ethnicity, availability, environment, etc. They hate women and have no respect for them. Scripture says it is what is on the inside that makes a man unclean, not what is on the outside. So, it is completely within the heart and mind of the rapist and the responsibility falls completely on him. Whether the person wears provocative clothing or is naked or drunk (or all the same), all responsibility falls on the rapist. Molestation is also a form of rape towards a minor. It doesn't matter what a child would wear. So, in this way, dress has nothing to do with rape nor is it a risk factor.
I will at the least say, that provocative clothing does not help men, keep their thoughts pure, or influence men towards the positive. So, I think some responsibility falls on women for helping or hurting men in the lust department. However, again, it is what is in the heart of the man that matters most.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/19/2008 12:27:17 PM
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mrtigger
Posts: 320
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evryknee
I will at the least say, that provocative clothing does not help men, keep their thoughts pure, or influence men towards the positive. So, I think some responsibility falls on women for helping or hurting men in the lust department. However, again, it is what is in the heart of the man that matters most.
Well put...
I can say that for me personally, that during my life, a number of provacatively dressed women have crossed my path. And in some cases, I've had lustful thoughts or sexual fantasies about them. But I've never had an urge to rape any of them.
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mr tigger
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/19/2008 1:02:15 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3660
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrtigger
quote:
ORIGINAL: evryknee
I will at the least say, that provocative clothing does not help men, keep their thoughts pure, or influence men towards the positive. So, I think some responsibility falls on women for helping or hurting men in the lust department. However, again, it is what is in the heart of the man that matters most.
Well put...
I can say that for me personally, that during my life, a number of provacatively dressed women have crossed my path. And in some cases, I've had lustful thoughts or sexual fantasies about them. But I've never had an urge to rape any of them.
That really isn't the question. I too have never been tempted to rape anyone. Clearly there is a component to rape that goes far beyond sexual attraction. The real question is whether sexual attraction ever plays a factor in the decision made by a rapist. While I understand (as I have said) that in some rapes opportunity is the only factor, in others, especially date rape cases, it clearly is not. In these cases I think that it is clear that a woman's attire can (and often is) a factor in her being chosen as a target of rape.
< Message edited by benelchi -- 11/19/2008 1:12:57 PM >
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/19/2008 1:12:17 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3660
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evryknee
I voted for never a risk factor. Rape if often about power. A rapist may scope out it's victims by age, hair, ethnicity, availability, environment, etc. They hate women and have no respect for them. Scripture says it is what is on the inside that makes a man unclean, not what is on the outside. So, it is completely within the heart and mind of the rapist and the responsibility falls completely on him. Whether the person wears provocative clothing or is naked or drunk (or all the same), all responsibility falls on the rapist. Molestation is also a form of rape towards a minor. It doesn't matter what a child would wear. So, in this way, dress has nothing to do with rape nor is it a risk factor.
I have to disagree with you on this point. I do agree that dress often is not a factor in many rape situations like the random pull a woman in to the bushes rape, or molestation cases with young children, etc.. But in date rape cases, I find it hard to believe that it is not a contributing factor in many cases. Date rape is one of the fastest growing areas of rape, and rape in the sex worker trade has long been one of the areas where the risk of rape is very high. I do understand that there are other factors that contribute to the high risk of rape in many of these cases, but I think it is ludicrous to single out provocative dress as the one thing that is not a risk factor. If as you stated, you believe that provocative dress poses a temptation to men, why would it be different for a man who was perverted enough to perpetrate rape? Why would a rapist be immune to the temptation the rest of us struggle with?
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/19/2008 1:21:05 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3660
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
hat I wish is that you had posted word for word your second post in this thread in the did she ask for it thread in M&E.
Follow up, I don't think it would have mattered as that post has already been interpreted as believing I was bashing women again. Those women who are intent in seeing evil in everything I say, it seems will do so no matter what I say.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/19/2008 2:27:46 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 4480
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From: upstate NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evryknee
I voted for never a risk factor. Rape if often about power.
i think even if one states rape is about power/control, that it's not contradictory to state that provocative dress may play a part in which woman is the target. thus i think it is one of many risk factors. i know a female who was date raped after they left a bar drunk with a stranger. i can't imagine the horror but she certainly didn't ask to get raped. she has since decided to drink less and not leave with anyone she just met. certainly seems to me that she realized choices she made may have played a small part in what happened, although it is not her fault.
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Photoblogging My Life
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/23/2008 7:29:53 AM
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MisterTR
Posts: 65
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I would agree with the comments that this is a small factor, and more likely to be a factor in date rape.
Somehow, it seems wrong to be focused on this factor, though. It makes me uncomfortable, maybe because it seems like we are blaming the woman for getting raped.
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"And we know that all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/23/2008 6:47:19 PM
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Konstantinos
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its always the rapist thats wrong.
if you want the reasons/excuses why he did it, sure provocative clothes may be one of them.
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i can pick you up off the floor and put you over my head
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/23/2008 8:35:29 PM
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litfire2000
Posts: 267
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
The point of this poll is not to blame any woman for being raped.
I agree with you, but most women would not. Men and women DO NOT think alike on this subject. People dress the way they dress to please themselves moreso than to please other people. Women do not understand the extent to which men are visual. Nor do they understand why men respond in the way that they do to a woman's manner of dress. They do, however, understand how to dress to be attractive to men. Confusing? Well, that's women for you. Some women dress provocatively precisely because they know the "power" it has over men. In other words, they want to make men "drool" but it is a "look but don't touch" situation, unless you happen to be the guy they want to touch them.
It is interesting to note that most women and men subscribe to the notion that how one dresses affects how others will percive them. But, women will not admit to dressing provocatively as having an unwanted or adverse affect on men or how men will percieve them or their intentions. Go figure. I guess we men will NEVER understand a woman.
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Ps. 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/24/2008 5:33:18 AM
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dwain
Posts: 103
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Insecurity, peer pressure, looking for a "trick", or related to business-selling a product, or providing entertainment, these might be a few of the reasons for showing or "highlighting" anatomy.
Maybe some women feel they enhance their attractiveness by accentuating
their physical attributes.
I don't really get it though- I have to see the face. A woman could be in a mini skirt & halter, or buck naked for that matter and have a perfect 36,24,36, but if I was not attracted to the uniqueness or symmetry of her facial features or the hue and radiance of her hair the fascination would end very quickly.
Whenever I think of Isaac meeting Rebekkah, such as depicted by Gustave Dore, I think of a beautiful dark haired middle eastern woman with dark olive skin, removing a viel to speak to Him. He was apparently so overtaken by her beauty he could hardly speak. What a beautiful story.
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http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/
Deut. 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/24/2008 8:33:18 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1879
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Status: online
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Isn't this about the 3rd or 4th thread on the same subject? I don't think anyone's opinion is going to change at this point.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/24/2008 8:18:21 PM
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gcsmithjr
Posts: 111
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benelchi-
First of all, I voted that provocative dress is never a risk factor in rape. Anyone who has ever dealt with rape in a serious, thoughtful manner recognizes that it is a crime of domination and violence, not one of sex or lust.
My bigger question for you is why are you so interested in this question. It appears that you've posted it on other threads and, frankly, I'm a little concerned that you're so concerned about this question when there are so many more honorable and productive things to be focused on. What has sparked your interest in this subject?
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/24/2008 11:36:15 PM
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hemidart
Posts: 23
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 Paragraph 2 of post 21: Don't be too hard on the man--I for one, have as a new member, just seen this thread /subject. Unfortunately, it is a hot topic because MOST men are bothered about it(Women dressing provocatively), & it helps to talk about our struggle. In Nth. America, we are continually bombarded by this problem--be it a commercial during a sports event(live or on tv.) or car company advertisements, etc. I,as a b.a. Christian am particularly offended at the growing wave of "Christian" women up front on the Church platform on Sunday mornings just terribly provocatively dressed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! At least it's that way in this neck of the woods in New Brunswick, Canada!!! Can I get a reply post saying it's likely that way most anywhere in NA? Maybe not in the "Bible Belt"? Some of them also don't know what a dress is either!!!! That being said-- my wife & I agree that MOST WOMEN KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING, dressing provocatively. Also, in my case, I am FORCED to see them on the stage---but MOST of my RESPECT for them has vanished. I like the Proverbs 31 woman, don't you?
Thanks for reading(listening) Sincerely, Dan
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/24/2008 11:57:10 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3660
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gcsmithjr
benelchi-
First of all, I voted that provocative dress is never a risk factor in rape. Anyone who has ever dealt with rape in a serious, thoughtful manner recognizes that it is a crime of domination and violence, not one of sex or lust.
This simply doesn't match the statistical data from most studies on rape, especially the data related to date rape cases (the fastest growing class of rape). This is the mantra often repeated by many women's groups but there is simply no data to back up this claim. Anyone who has dealt with rape in a serious and thoughtful manner understands that rape is a crime of domination and violence that includes a sexual component.
quote:
My bigger question for you is why are you so interested in this question. It appears that you've posted it on other threads and, frankly, I'm a little concerned that you're so concerned about this question when there are so many more honorable and productive things to be focused on. What has sparked your interest in this subject?
I am concerned about this topic because false information (like you stated above) is continually presented, and while you may not find it "honorable" to stick up for the truth, I believe it is in the best interest of both men and women to be accurate with the facts.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/25/2008 7:36:24 AM
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gcsmithjr
Posts: 111
Joined: 11/23/2008
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Wow, are you misinformed.
First of all, if rape is even remotely related to provocative dress, why has the number of rapes in the U.S. declined relatively consistently since 1979 (I doubt that anyone would try to make a case that women dressed more provocatively in 1979 than they do today). From the US Justice department:
quote:
In 1979, according to a Justice Department estimate based on a wide-ranging public survey, there were 2.8 rapes for every 1,000 people. In 2004, the same survey found that the rate had decreased to 0.4 per thousand.
Second, if provocative dress has any impact on someone's likelihood to be raped can you explain why 44% of rape victims are under the age of 18 (and 15% are under the age of 12)? Is it because young girls are more likely to dress provocatively or because they're easier to victimize?
This "Truth" that you claim to be sticking up for is nothing more than blaming the potential victim. It is unbiblical and immoral. Regardless of what you want to believe, the Bible is clear that men (and women) are responsible for their actions - for guarding our hearts and our thoughts. We are not to let temptations in any form - whether money, provocatively clothed women, pornography or power - dictate our behavior. 1 Cor 6:12-20 is pretty clear that we, as men, are not to be mastered by any form of sexual immorality, and trying to tie rape to provocative clothing at any level is simply abdicating control over our own behavior.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/25/2008 8:18:19 AM
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gcsmithjr
Posts: 111
Joined: 11/23/2008
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quote:
Don't be too hard on the man--I for one, have as a new member, just seen this thread /subject. Unfortunately, it is a hot topic because MOST men are bothered about it (Women dressing provocatively), & it helps to talk about our struggle.
I don't mean to be hard on anyone, and I totally get the struggle (and deal with it every day). I am concerned that somehow this thread made the jump from struggling with lust to rape, because adding rape to the discussion takes it to a whole different (scary) level.
If you take the discussion out of the sexual environment I don't think there would be any disagreements. For example, if my neighbor buys a new Porsche Boxster and parks it in front of my house with the top down and the keys in the ignition, is it O.K. for me to steal it? Does it matter if he did it because he's forgetful, is a jerk and wanted to show off his new car, or knows I love cars and wanted to make me envious?
I can't imagine that anyone would make the case that his actions would, in any way, justify my stealing his car? I can look at it, admire it, tell him never to park his car there again, maybe even have it towed away, but the minute that I decide to steal it I've crossed a line that has nothing to do with his behavior.
Let's talk about the struggles we deal with when women dress provocatively, but I think it sets a really bad precedent when we start trying to blame our behavior on someone else's actions.
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