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Red Yeast Rice and the FDA - 9/4/2008 10:03:07 PM
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Bettawrekonize
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I read about the topic of Red Yeast rice a long time ago and even posted a (now expired) webpage about it here ( http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/cayman/290/health.html ). However, I decided to look it up on google and came across some interesting websites and updates. I want to post some comments on this thread. quote:
First, because red yeast rice was found to contain lovastatin, the FDA made an administrative decision that this dietary supplement (often sold as Cholestin in earlier times) was a regulable drug, and thus removed it from the unregulated shelves of the health food store. http://heartdisease.about.com/cs/cholesterol/a/Nrxcol_rry.htm Basically, the FDA decided to ban this drug because it contained a regulated substance. At the time that this happened, there were no studies indicating that it was harmful, no cases of anyone dying from it, and there were studies indicating that it was an effective drug at reducing cholesterol. quote:
Studies using the "original" form of red yeast rice accordingly confirmed significant reductions in cholesterol levels. http://heartdisease.about.com/cs/cholesterol/a/Nrxcol_rry.htm quote:
Results from a large randomized trial conducted in China, published in the American Journal of Cardiology, show that, in patients with prior myocardial infarctions (heart attacks) who were given an extract made from red yeast rice, the risk of having another heart attack and the risk of dying were reduced by nearly 50%. In the Chinese Coronary Secondary Prevention Study, nearly 5,000 heart attack survivors received either Xuezhikang (XZK, a red yeast rice extract) or placebo in a double-blinded randomized clinical trial -- neither the patient nor the doctors knew which substance individual patients received. After an average of 4.5 years, patients receiving XZK had a 45% relative reduction in heart attacks and in death. http://heartdisease.about.com/od/cholesteroltriglycerides/a/red_yeast_rice.htm From my understanding, the Chinese have used Red Yeast rice in their food for at least hundreds of years ( http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/red-yeast-rice/NS_patient-redyeast ). quote:
Approximately one year before Baycol was removed from the market in August 2001, its manufacturer Bayer, using FDA data on other statins found that Baycol had 20 times more reports of rhabdomyolysis (an often-fatal destruction of muscle) per million prescriptions than Lipitor, Wolfe stated. ... By the time Baycol was banned, there were 1,899 cases of rhabdomyolysis, a significant number having occurred between the time there was unequivocal evidence that FDA should have banned the drug and when it was actually banned a year later. http://www.weitzlux.com/baycol/lawyerbaycolrhabdomyolysisbaycolfda_3729.html If memory serves me correctly, some people died from this drug ( http://www.a-baycol-lawyer.com/html/links.html ). quote:
Then, in 1999, the FDA ruling on red rice yeast was overturned by the court of the District of Utah The court basically ruled that, because the substance in Red Yeast Rice occurs naturally in red yeast rice, the FDA can't regulate red yeast rice just because it contains that substance. quote:
But finally, in 2000, the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that red yeast rice IS subject to FDA regulation. Since then, the FDA has aggressively gone after companies selling red rice yeast containing lovastatin. While red rice yeast is still available on the grocer's shelf, the stuff that is out there now is apparently fermented using a different process, and apparently (I say "apparently" because it is in fact extraordinarily difficult to find out what dietary supplements do and do not contain) does NOT contain lovastatin. Who's side is the FDA on. It seems like they are siding with the pharmaceutical companies on this one. I googled red yeast rice and the FDA and this came up, quote:
FDA Warns Consumers to Avoid Red Yeast Rice Products Promoted on Internet as Treatments for High Cholesterol Products found to contain unauthorized drug ... “This risk is even more serious because consumers may not know the side effects associated with lovastatin and the fact that it can adversely interact with other medications," said Steven Galson, M.D., M.P.H., director of FDA's Center for Drug Evaluation and Research. http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2007/NEW01678.html Basically, the FDA is warning people to avoid Red Yeast rice because it can be harmful despite the fact that there are few, if any, studies indicating this. One possibility is that they will try to control the usage of Red Yeast rice even more and they may even try to eliminate the distribution of any information supporting its usage (ie: studies). Sometime in the future, you might find that Google will stop presenting any studies supporting the usage of Red Yeast Rice (and may present a bunch of FDA or other websites discouraging its usage instead. A good example is in the case of science and origins. If you try to google something like, "criticisms of evolution" Google tends to favor websites that support evolution and the ones criticizing it don't seem to be nearly the strongest critical material out there. If I google "criticisms of evolution" I should receive many websites criticizing, or attempting to criticize, evolution near the top. I have to specifically google something like 'Answers in genesis' to get their website) and the FDA, and/or other organizations, may even fabricate studies indicating that Red Yeast rice is more harmful than it really is (and is less helpful than it really is). What does everyone think? Look at radio stations and television. It used to be much less controlled by single entities with a single agenda/ point of view and it used to be much more controlled by many many entities with various points of views criticizing each other on all sorts of subjects. Then, the FCC greatly reduced the amount of regulation which made more stringent control reducing the freedom of speech taking place over the airwaves much easier to attain ( http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/D/htmlD/deregulation/deregulation.htm ). In the 1970,'s no one would have thought that single entities would have so much control over our freedom of speech over the airwaves. Yet, now we see that they are increasingly having more and more control over our freedom of speech over the airwaves and censoring anything that they disagree with (for example, you will probably never hear about this red yeast rice issue over the airwaves, and there is an array of other issues that you should be aware of that hardly ever make it on public television). Could it be that, sometime in the future, they may have similar controls over our freedom of speech over the internet? What does everyone think? I strongly encourage other entities to make their own search engines to help counter this problem and hopefully they will fight any lawsuits against them for displaying websites that question what is commonly promoted by the secular community (ie: sites encouraging the legalization (and usage) of Red Yeast rice for those who could benefit from it (and sites displaying studies showing the benefits of Red Yeast Rice and cites questioning the legitimacy of the FDA)). We also need to make sure that our society is set up such that those that fight for our freedom of speech (ie: fight lawsuits that may challenge it. This is especially true in the case of science and origins where public schools censor anything that may question naturalism and naturalistic philosophies like evolution) will win (we need to make sure those making the decisions (ie: judges) will vote in a way that encourages academic freedom, open inquiry, and freedom of speech).
< Message edited by Bettawrekonize -- 9/4/2008 10:40:45 PM >
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RE: Red Yeast Rice and the FDA - 9/5/2008 10:23:37 AM
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Bettawrekonize
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I think I found the original site I linked to a long time ago (it moved). quote:
The prescription drugs called statins that are being taken by so many people are life-threatening. Bayer's drug Baycol had to be removed from the market in August, 2001 because it caused over 100 deaths. Yet, the FDA wants to force you to take these drugs rather than the much safer RYR. ... I have been taking CholesteSure by Natrol* with my physician's knowledge and he is very happy with the results of the lowering of my cholesterol. I tried one of the drug companies' cholesterol lowering drugs last November, 2000 and almost died. I had an allergic reaction and my doctor told me to stop taking it. I did. He said we would just monitor my cholesterol and for me not take any prescription medications. I decided to do a little research on the web and found many studies done on Red Yeast Rice. I talked to my doctor in January, 2001 and he agreed that I should try it. I did and after 3 months my total cholesterol dropped down from 286 to 225. I have had no side effects. Also my blood pressure is lower. * Editor's note: Due to FDA pressure, Natrol no longer carries Red Yeast Rice products. http://www.cholesterolcheck.org/ryrandfda.htm
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RE: Red Yeast Rice and the FDA - 9/5/2008 2:38:02 PM
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Bettawrekonize
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The FDA seems to be fine with not outlawing drugs that seem to be far more dangerous than Red Yeast Rice. quote:
In an article by Sally Fallon and Mary G. Enig, PhD we are told, “The most common side effect (of statin drugs) is muscle pain and weakness, a condition called rhabdomyolysis, most likely due to the depletion of Co-Q10, a nutrient that supports muscle function.” Rhabdomyalysis is a common, many times lethal, tearing down of the muscle tissue which is then distributed into the bloodstream. The article goes on to say, “Dr. Beatrice Golomb of San Diego, California is currently conducting a series of studies on statin side effects. The industry insists that only 2-3 percent of patients get muscle aches and cramps but in one study, Golomb found that 98 percent of patients taking Lipitor and one-third of the patients taking Mevachor (a lower-dose statin) suffered from muscle problems. http://www.naturalnews.com/022046.html I also found this interesting. quote:
The statin drugs do lower cholesterol, but the reason drug companies spend so much money to market synthetic or modified substances is that they cannot patent natural substances. When it was discovered that the statin-like molecule in red-yeast-rice occurred naturally, FDA should have withdrawn the patent on Mevacor. However, the rule of FDA on red yeast rice that it should be withdrawn, is not correct since cholestin found in red yeast rice is a natural substance and falls under the protection of the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act. Of course, the FDA can remove any substance that poses a health risk from the market , natural or otherwise, but their actions on this product clearly shows their bias against dietary supplements and their favorable treatment of drugs. http://www.all-about-lowering-cholesterol.com/fda-red-yeast-rice.html
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RE: Red Yeast Rice and the FDA - 9/11/2008 11:52:33 AM
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Bettawrekonize
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More studies on red yeast rice. quote:
A study at UCLA School of Medicine confirmed red yeast rice's natural cholesterol-busting abilities. In a rigorous double-blind, randomized trial, this supplement significantly reduced total cholesterol compared with a placebo. Among 83 people who took red yeast rice for 12 weeks, total cholesterol dropped by an average of 16% (from approximately 250 to 210)... cholesterol remained at about 250 in the 41 people who were given a placebo. There also was a positive impact on LDL cholesterol and triglyceride levels. These results were published in The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition in 1999. http://www.mail-archive.com/camp03@fesim.org/msg13853.html
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RE: Red Yeast Rice and the FDA - 10/1/2008 11:51:28 AM
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Bettawrekonize
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I also found this interesting FDA makes concessions following criticism quote:
The move comes after the USC published the results of a survey it conducted amongst FDA scientific staff which indicates that nearly one fifth of respondents 'have been asked, for non-scientific reasons, to inappropriately exclude or alter technical information or their conclusions in a FDA scientific document'. The survey also showed that 61 per cent of respondents knew of cases where 'department of health and human services or FDA political appointees have inappropriately injected themselves into FDA determinations or actions.' ... Firstly there is the fact that the FDA is influenced by significant legislation fees from companies that last year added $380m to the coffers, with the largest contributors making up some of the biggest and most influential consumer companies in North America. Secondly, and perhaps most influential of all, there is the fact that the FDA is free-standing and not accountable to congress, a fact that leaves the agency more open to outside influences. http://www.cosmeticsdesign.com/Formulation-Science/FDA-makes-concessions-following-criticism We need to increase FDA accountability. quote:
But criticism of the agency has not fallen upon deaf ears. In response to the publication of the UCS report and an ensuing public outcry, the FDA says it is introducing measures that will increase transparency within its advisory committee, which in turn should dispel any assertions that the process is open to non-scientific influences. Oh, this is perfect logic here. If the FDA is acting in an unethical manner, let them fix the problem by regulating itself. So if someone does something illegal, let him be his own judge and let him determine his own punishment and what should be done to prevent him from committing future crimes. Then, after he has taken his own measures to prevent himself from committing future crimes, he can assure us that those measures will make it less likely that he will commit future crimes. No, the FDA's self regulation is not the solution here. We need to make the FDA accountable to the people, not just to itself.
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RE: Red Yeast Rice and the FDA - 10/15/2008 10:44:54 AM
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Bettawrekonize
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Apparently, Some Red Yeast Rice Still Contains Lovastatin This site contains a list of testimonials by some people who have tried red yeast rice and who have also tried some pharmaceutical drugs and have found red yeast rice to be safer (with fewer side effects) and more effective than the pharmaceutical drugs (which is what many studies have been consistent with). Yet, instead of promoting the stuff for good health, it seems that the FDA outlawed one of the main active ingredients in it to make it ineffective so that it won't compete with pharmaceutical drugs. Yes, all these testimonials may not be as reliable as a clinical trial, but I do think they help demonstrate that red yeast rice could help many people and shouldn't be illegal (worst case scenario, red yeast rice containing lovastatin should be available under a doctors prescription but anyone should be allowed to produce it).
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RE: Red Yeast Rice and the FDA - 10/20/2008 12:52:35 PM
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Bettawrekonize
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I also found this interesting quote:
...more than a third of the FDA's scientists lack confidence in the safety and effectiveness of the drugs they approve for sale ... Two-thirds of the Food and Drug Administration's scientists perceive significant shortcomings in their agency's monitoring of prescription medications once they hit the market. ...a 2001 government survey ... revealed that 66%, roughly two out of three, of the FDA's front-line research scientists were either "not at all confident" or only "somewhat confident" in the agency's practices with regard to monitoring a drug's safety once past the approval process. And remember, this survey is SEVERAL YEARS OLD... ... It's a shame that so many have to die or be stricken with heart attacks or strokes before even this kind of lame-duck measure is taken, but an even bigger shame is the message this sends to the drug companies... Unless the drug you're making kills or maims 100,000 people or more, you can keep selling it, and nobody's the wiser. FDA's "Hear No Evil" Policy But then they outlaw red yeast rice containing lovastatin, a supplement that has been shown to be safer and often times more effective than pharmaceutical drugs. But it's ok for the government not to outlaw cigarettes because they make tobacco companies lots of money (and generate tax revenue) even though they have killed many people.
< Message edited by Bettawrekonize -- 10/20/2008 12:59:26 PM >
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RE: Red Yeast Rice and the FDA - 10/20/2008 7:12:32 PM
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Bettawrekonize
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quote:
The Food and Drug Administration voted overwhelmingly to keep the diabetes drug Avandia on the market, despite its known deadly effects. Two FDA committees met yesterday in Gaithersburg, Maryland, to consider whether the drug -- which has led to the deaths of 80,000 people -- should be pulled from the marketplace. The FDA does not deny that the drug is dangerous. ... The dangers of Avandia are well documented and are not news to the FDA. In May, the New England Journal of Medicine published a study that found Avandia increases the risk of heart attacks. But FDA officials already knew that; indeed the drug's maker, GlaxoSmithKline LLC, based in London, told the agency of the risk two years ago. However, the FDA failed to pass along the warning to the one million Americans who already take the drug. ... Dr. David Graham, a drug safety officer with the FDA's Office of Surveillance and Epidemiology, estimates that Avandia has caused as many as 205,000 heart attacks and strokes, some of them fatal, between 1999 and 2006. Graham's analysis indicates that since Avandia was approved, some 80,000 patients have died from the drug's side effects. For every month that Avandia is sold, he said, 1,600 to 2,200 patients will suffer more of these events. http://www.naturalnews.com/021959.html quote:
Following the death of as many as 60,000 Americans from COX-2 inhibitors (source: British Medical Journal, author Dr. David Graham, FDA drug safety researcher), an FDA advisory panel has now voted to allow the drugs to return to the market with full FDA safety approval. The fact that a single COX-2 drug has reportedly killed more Americans than the entire Vietnam War is apparently not sufficient for the FDA to characterize it as unsafe. http://www.naturalnews.com/004728.html Amazing how the FDA allows these drugs on the market but they ban Red Yeast rice containing lovastatin, a supplement that has practically harmed no one and has been shown to be safer and often times more effective than relative drugs on the market.
< Message edited by Bettawrekonize -- 10/20/2008 7:24:21 PM >
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RE: Red Yeast Rice and the FDA - 10/23/2008 11:24:44 AM
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Bettawrekonize
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I posted this somewhere else, but I figure I'll post it here since it's also relevant here. quote:
In 2006, the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) and Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER) distributed a 38-question survey to 5,918 FDA scientists to examine the state of science at the FDA. The results paint a picture of a troubled agency: hundreds of scientists reported significant interference with the FDA's scientific work, compromising the agency's ability to fulfill its mission of protecting public health and safety. ... In September 2006, the National Academies Institute of Medicine released a report critical of the FDA and its ability to protect the public from unsafe drugs. In a section discussing the poor handling of scientific disagreement, the report mentioned the UCS survey result indicating that hundreds of agency scientists had been pressured to approve a drug despite reservations about safety. quote:
"Scientific discourse is strongly discouraged when it may jeopardize an approval. . . . Whenever safety or efficacy concerns are raised on scientific grounds . . . these concerns are not taken seriously." "First class scientists are leaving the FDA, and recruiting new ones will be very difficult." —selected FDA survey essay repsonses Survey: FDA Scientists (2006) It seems like politics plays a significant role within the FDA. More evidence to the fact that red yeast rice containing lovastatin was outlawed, not due to scientific reasons, but due to political reasons. If this isn't a conspiracy, I don't know what is. One of the dangers of this is that it seems like those scientists that are quitting are the good and most honest scientists (they don't want to work for this corrupt organization anymore). Well, if honest scientists are leaving what are the chances that each honest scientist that leaves/left will be/has been replaced by another honest scientist (especially when you take into account that there is a good chance that the administrators will try to select scientists that will keep this problem a secret). If the administrators do try to select scientists that will keep this problem a secret, then you have a formula for disaster. Chances are that the FDA administrators will not try to fix the problem (after all, the administrators are part of the problem); instead, they will try harder to hide it. More relevant links. A Report Card on Federal Agency Media Policies (ucsusa) Full report Many FDA Scientists Had Drug Concerns, 2002 Survey Shows (a more complete report of one of the survey's I already linked to). quote:
In a truly astonishing survey just released by the Union of Concerned Scientists, the Food and Drug Administration's own scientists describe the agency as an environment of intimidation, censorship and scientific fraud. A survey of 997 FDA scientists revealed that forty percent feared "retaliation" for voicing safety concerns over prescription drugs in public. Over one-third of the scientists didn't even feel safe expressing safety concerns inside the agency, behind closed doors! http://www.naturalnews.com/019717.html
< Message edited by Bettawrekonize -- 10/23/2008 12:37:12 PM >
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RE: Red Yeast Rice and the FDA - 11/9/2008 3:45:51 PM
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Bettawrekonize
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quote:
The Canadian Heart and Stroke Foundation is taking courageous steps in trying to ban junk foods -- the kind of steps you'd never see U.S. government departments take since they've been corrupted by the influence of food manufacturers and junk food companies. http://www.naturalnews.com/000908.html That's another good point. The government allows it to be convenient for young students to buy junk food at school and they give them the legal ability to choose whether or not they want to buy junk food at school (junk food that contributes to many health problems such as obesity), but when it comes to choosing what we want to treat our health problems with, so long as our ability to choose interferes with the profit margins of rich corporations and special interest groups (especially those who have the most to lose, namely, those with patents and intellectual property rights making it much easier to sell something way above cost), the government wants to give us no such choice. They only give us a choice when allowing us to choose to do something is convenient for the rich special interest groups that lobby them the most, what choices they want to give us has little to do with what's best for the American people (ie: Americans are allowed to smoke cigarettes but they can't try to treat their cholesterol with Red Yeast Rice containing Lovastain, a substance it naturally contains). I find it hard to believe that everything that's allegedly best for the American people just so happens to be best for the profit margins of the special interest groups that lobby the most. quote:
The dietary supplement industry collectively spends approximately $1.8 million per year on lobbying. For perspective, the top three industries that spend the most on lobbying are insurance companies ($120 million), electric utilities ($92 million) and drug manufacturers ($91 million). Of course, these industries are many times larger than the dietary supplement industry, which is currently at around $22 billion, so we would expect those industries to spend more. http://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/articles/07jan15govup.html
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RE: Red Yeast Rice and the FDA - 12/6/2008 4:39:02 PM
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Bettawrekonize
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I also found this interesting quote:
At 9:10 a.m. on Wednesday, September 17th, 2003 the Federal Drug Administration (FDA) suspended most activities at our fulfillment center in Louisiana. They have deemed the above products questionable in the United States of America. They believe that our products are not safe for human consumption. The FDA is currently testing the products they have taken from our facility. They have accused us of making health claims for our products, such as claiming they could cure, prevent or treat a disease even though we have a disclaimer on almost every page and each product label stating: To U.S. Users Only: The statements made on this page have not been evaluated by the U.S. Food & Drug Administration. The viewing of this page in your country is for historic and educational purposes only. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. THE ALPHA OMEGA STORY - another FDA Scam I don't really know much about the products in question, but I don't think the FDA should be taking away our health freedoms like this. Given the FDA's criminal history and the fact that they don't seem to be accountable for their crimes, the chances are that the FDA is simply acting in favor of big pharmaceutical corporations again. The U.S. is turning into a very militarily controlled state, a state where our freedoms are taken away from us for the benefit of rich special interest groups. I also found this interesting quote:
"Many of the Web sites targeted today are jeopardizing the health and safety of consumers with outlandish promises and false hope," said FTC Chairman Timothy J. Muris. "Unfortunately, examples of questionable products being peddled on the Web abound, and the Federal Trade Commission, with its partners, will step up its efforts to protect consumers from these compelling, but deceptive health claims." http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2001/06/cureall.shtm They're trying to protect us by trying to take away our freedom of speech on the web? I doubt their motives are to protect us. http://www.naturalnews.com/024809.html Why is it that pharmaceutical corporations get to put tons of money into marketing their dangerous drugs to doctors and the public (and lobbying the government), but if anyone else tries to sell any alternatives, they get those alternative banned? The reason for these bans is not to protect the American people, it's to protect pharmaceutical profits. As long as patients understand the potential risks and benefits of a product, they should be allowed to try it to treat whatever it is they have (without having the FDA ban alternative treatments). But alas, we live in a society where people have the right to smoke cigarettes (a substance that has killed millions), but anything that competes with pharmaceutical drugs is potentially subject to a ban. quote:
This blatant abuse of authority, of course, requires no evidence of injury and/or bodies, while the thousands of deaths from approved drugs and other medical procedures strangely keep going on and on. This inconsistently is hardly a concern for this agency - just look at the sloppy inconsistencies in the raid below - clearly this has more to do with the protecting their pharma cronies than us! (first link).
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RE: Red Yeast Rice and the FDA - 12/13/2008 3:37:37 PM
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Bettawrekonize
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quote:
The health freedom community is up in arms over a possible new interpretation of FDA regulations that would bar any nutritional supplement from being sold over state lines if it contains ingredients that have ever been approved for scientific studies. .. The American Association for Health Freedom (www.HealthFreedom.net) issued a warning on November 25, which stated that the FDA's regulatory changes "...may mean that all food products, including dietary supplements, could be barred from being marketed if they have been the subject of published clinical studies." Is the FDA Seeking to Ban All Dietary Supplements Examined in Scientific Studies? I like this part quote:
His response says that the interpretation of FDA rules is misguided and alarmist, and no new rules have been put into place at all. Thus, it risks the credibility of the health freedom movement to cry wolf over a non-issue. Yes, because every time the "health freedom movement" cry's wolf, it's a non - issue (/sarcasm). The fact is that we are crying wolf because there is an issue. The fact that these people are willing to entertain the possibility of banning dietary supplements examined in scientific studies (mind you, the FDA did ban dietary supplements at one time, and they were banned until congress stepped in and unbanned them) indicates that there is a wolf and the fact that they want to choose their words carefully (ie: by trying to avoid rules stated in a way that obviously raises alarm. ie: they would like to outright say, "anything that competes with big pharmaceuticals is banned" or "dietary supplements are banned" or "vitamins are banned" or "any dietary supplement that's been studied is banned" but that raises alarm, so they have to find a more subtle way of banning this stuff) so that they don't make their true agenda so obvious also indicates that there is a wolf.
< Message edited by Bettawrekonize -- 12/13/2008 4:37:15 PM >
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RE: Red Yeast Rice and the FDA - 12/14/2008 9:54:22 PM
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ManimalX
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Dude, I have never heard of Red Yeast Rice, but you deserve a medal or something. Being the only continuous poster to your own three month old thread is what I call dedication!
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Red Yeast Rice and the FDA - 12/15/2008 12:20:45 AM
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Bettawrekonize
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX Dude, I have never heard of Red Yeast Rice, but you deserve a medal or something. Being the only continuous poster to your own three month old thread is what I call dedication! That's because these forums have a strong "modern" republican bias. I myself tend to favor the republican position but I really think the republicans have lost their identity. The republicans have traditionally promoted the health freedoms and sovereignty of the individual over his health and have traditionally held that the individual is best fit to determine what is best for himself/herself and his/her children (whereas democrats have always, more or less, wanted the government to make such decisions). In recent years; however, it seems the republican party has lost much of its identity and their position is, "do whatever makes rich corporations richer even if it comes at the expense of the American people" and many on these forums seem to hold that same view (though, of course, they don't explicitly state that). If you look at other forums (ie: other forums that I have posted on) you'll notice that other people are much more concerned about our health freedoms. The reason I post here the most is because I know the people on these forums are most likely to argue against me and give every possible counterargument they can come up with no matter how ridiculous (whereas, on other forums, most people will just agree with me). By posting on these forums, I hope to strengthen my arguments and my position and/or to show that any counterarguments that anyone may bring are silly. That way, people can at least see that even when my arguments are scrutinize, that scrutiny fails. Or, perhaps, if anyone does manage to raise good counterarguments against my arguments, I can learn from them. For an example of another forum where people are more concerned about this, see http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=144725 (I'm not even the initial one who brought up this subject on those forums, I found that forum/thread much after many people have already scrutinized the FDA for their misbehavior on that thread. However, I have been following this issue for many years now). also see, http://www.conspiracycafe.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=19486 I also noted in another thread how the people on these forums (forums.christianity.com) seem to be outraged against blue collar crime (and they should be) but then they say little when it comes to white collar crime. Many people on these forums seem to have a double standard, but at least it gives me the opportunity to expose them of that double standard. added in edit: After all, how am I going to change people's opinions if I preach to a group of people that already agree with me? It is exactly because people on these forums are least likely to agree with me on the subject that makes it more likely that I will change some opinions.
< Message edited by Bettawrekonize -- 12/15/2008 12:09:21 PM >
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