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RE: shifting beliefs - 11/13/2008 10:11:29 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
I understand that. But the fact that the one is "Lord" and not "God" points to a covenant context, not an ontological one.
Actually the "one" is YHWH and not Lord (Adonai); The Jewish people have verbally substituted Lord (Adonai) for the name Jehovah when reading the scriptures since before the time of Christ, and based on this tradition most translations also substitute the word Lord when translating YHWH.
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RE: shifting beliefs - 11/14/2008 4:56:50 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
I don't know why people think that inserting Hebrew words into a verse some how makes it better, but if you are going to do so, at least do so in a way that accurately translates the verse; don't fundamentally change the meaning of a verse just to make it sound "Jewish"!
Ben,
Wisely noted.You know how much respect I have for you and your language clarifications are brilliantly precise and you always correctly and gently point out the linguistic sloppiness.
Quite a few people here were needlessly, recklessly overusing Hebrew terms in plain English text - with detrimental results, adding confusion to the threads and to me especially, casually using words that have strong Judaistic meaning and connotation as a substitute for a Christian term, without any reason for it.
Such bilingual texts were a pure torture to read and people unfortunately were giving a strong impression of being legalistic,ritualistic,jumped on a religious fashion style bandwagon, enjoying a bigger phylactery.
My patience – and angels got nothing on me when it comes to that ,my beloved brother!- endured bad grammar, misspellings, hebrenglish plural forms as mitzvahs and mikvahs, and confusing Aliyah with IDF’s program Mahal, etc.. .
Most violators were angry messianic and anti-trinitarians ,so eventually they got weeded out for various TOS violations, but I have to compliment BT, who, after investigation :), appeared used the terms for personal convictions, not to appear "holier then thou"
When explained that was giving the wrong impression and confusing people , he stopped and posts in English only now.It takes a man to admit he was wrong, and change, and he did.So that i respect.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: shifting beliefs - 11/14/2008 9:00:14 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2113
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From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
most translations also substitute the word Lord when translating YHWH.
Small correction, most English translations substitute LORD (note the all caps) when translating YHWH.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: shifting beliefs - 11/14/2008 9:02:56 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3671
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From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
most translations also substitute the word Lord when translating YHWH.
Small correction, most English translations substitute LORD (note the all caps) when translating YHWH.
Actually that depends on the version. The KJV uses LORD, but the NIV, NLT, and NASB all use Lord.
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RE: shifting beliefs - 11/14/2008 9:21:13 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2113
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From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Actually that depends on the version. The KJV uses LORD, but the NIV, NLT, and NASB all use Lord.
My NIV, NLT and NASB all use LORD, or LORD (with the "ord" in a smaller font but still all caps). Online versions at BibleGateway do the same.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: shifting beliefs - 11/14/2008 9:27:14 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3671
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From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Actually that depends on the version. The KJV uses LORD, but the NIV, NLT, and NASB all use Lord.
My NIV, NLT and NASB all use LORD, or LORD (with the "ord" in a smaller font but still all caps). Online versions at BibleGateway do the same.
I have read that a million times before and never noticed the smaller letters were in upper case. I just assumed smaller letter were lower case.
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RE: shifting beliefs - 11/17/2008 10:25:16 AM
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HardKnox
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Thanks, figmentpez. That was the context I was dealing in, Lord being Jehovah, not Adonai.
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RE: shifting beliefs - 11/20/2008 5:54:31 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1669
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Most violators were angry messianic and anti-trinitarians ,so eventually they got weeded out for various TOS violations, but I have to compliment BT, who, after investigation :), appeared used the terms for personal convictions, not to appear "holier then thou"
When explained that was giving the wrong impression and confusing people , he stopped and posts in English only now.It takes a man to admit he was wrong, and change, and he did.So that i respect.
At the risk of being thought less than a man, I must say, I did not stop because I was wrong. I stopped out of respect for the weaker sister. If you would have been willing to correct my usage, I would have continued. I still believe that the use of Englishisms when discussing the Scriptures are just as offensive, if not more. When one mistakenly uses a second language improperly that is one thing. To misuse one's own language, or one similar, is yet another.
I allow others to communicate in whatever manner works for them as long as it doesn't interfere with the flow of the discussion. I do point out linguistic errors if they appear to be habitual or are misleading. However, I do not require others to change their method of communication for my personal preference. I appreciate your respect, but I do not want to receive credit for something I have not done.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: shifting beliefs - 11/20/2008 6:03:20 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3671
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Most violators were angry messianic and anti-trinitarians ,so eventually they got weeded out for various TOS violations, but I have to compliment BT, who, after investigation :), appeared used the terms for personal convictions, not to appear "holier then thou"
When explained that was giving the wrong impression and confusing people , he stopped and posts in English only now.It takes a man to admit he was wrong, and change, and he did.So that i respect.
At the risk of being thought less than a man, I must say, I did not stop because I was wrong. I stopped out of respect for the weaker sister. If you would have been willing to correct my usage, I would have continued. I still believe that the use of Englishisms when discussing the Scriptures are just as offensive, if not more. When one mistakenly uses a second language improperly that is one thing. To misuse one's own language, or one similar, is yet another.
I allow others to communicate in whatever manner works for them as long as it doesn't interfere with the flow of the discussion. I do point out linguistic errors if they appear to be habitual or are misleading. However, I do not require others to change their method of communication for my personal preference. I appreciate your respect, but I do not want to receive credit for something I have not done.
I am not sure why you believe using Hebrew words is somehow better than using the English ones. And in many instances where I have seen you use the Jewish/Hebrew words you have been incorrect. The example above where you misinterpreted the scriptures because you felt you needed to substitute Hebrew words into the text was scary. Today I say you use "Ha Torah" for The Law, but a valid Hebrew transliteration would have been "HaTorah" i.e. it is one word. More to the point, English speakers would have understood "The Law" far more easily than they do "Ha Torah" which would have to be explained to many. What is the benifit? I have seen you repeatedly refer to the Old Testament as a "Tanach"; however, that accurately refers only to an OT in the Jewish book order, something you apparently do not use, so not only is the reference unnecessary, it is just plain wrong and just adds to peoples confusion.
Why do you believe a Hebrew and/or Jewish word is better than an English ones?
What about those words that came to us first in the Greek, why would those be inferior to the Jewish/Hebrew ones?
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RE: shifting beliefs - 11/20/2008 6:53:48 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1669
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
I am not sure why you believe using Hebrew words is somehow better than using the English ones. And in many instances where I have seen you use the Jewish/Hebrew words you have been incorrect. The example above where you misinterpreted the scriptures because you felt you needed to substitute Hebrew words into the text was scary. Today I say you use "Ha Torah" for The Law, but a valid Hebrew transliteration would have been "HaTorah" i.e. it is one word. More to the point, English speakers would have understood "The Law" far more easily than they do "Ha Torah" which would have to be explained to many. What is the benifit? I have seen you repeatedly refer to the Old Testament as a "Tanach"; however, that accurately refers only to an OT in the Jewish book order, something you apparently do not use, so not only is the reference unnecessary, it is just plain wrong and just adds to peoples confusion.
I do not understand what is scary about the mistake you believe I made. How does the difference between Ha Torah and HaTorah or the fact that the Tanach is in a different create great harm. If I am incorrect, I will change how I write it, but are you just as particular with the king's english. If I refer to the Scriptures transcribes by Moshe' as "The Law" it implies that those Scriptures all commandments and statutes, and that what Adonai says is oppressive. If I refer to the Scriptures written before the incarnation as the "old testiment" it implies that that they are somehow worn out and useless. These kinds of misunderstandings cause great harm and truly interfere with focused discussion. My inclusion of an hebrew term along with the english is helpful in clarifying what it is I am talking about.
quote:
Why do you believe a Hebrew and/or Jewish word is better than an English ones?
The only reason is that many english words are contrived and carry many doctrinal connotations, which may not be correct. I hope you have noticed that I am not writing in hebrew, but have used terms in an attempt to focus on the more accurate biblical definitions.
By the way it is an hebrew word, not a hebrew word. In english the indefinite article before a vowel is an, and when h is followed by a vowel at the beginning of a word it becomes a vowel. That was scary! I'm glad we cleared that up before someone poked out an eye.
quote:
What about those words that came to us first in the Greek, why would those be inferior to the Jewish/Hebrew ones?
Use whatever language you want, write in bengali if the definition is more accurate, as long as you provide a translation until you are sure the person you are talking to understands the term.
Feel free to correct my usage, but to insist that I not use the term because I may not use it properly is equivalent to me asking you to never use the word "a" again because you just used it improperly.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: shifting beliefs - 11/20/2008 8:33:27 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3671
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
I am not sure why you believe using Hebrew words is somehow better than using the English ones. And in many instances where I have seen you use the Jewish/Hebrew words you have been incorrect. The example above where you misinterpreted the scriptures because you felt you needed to substitute Hebrew words into the text was scary. Today I say you use "Ha Torah" for The Law, but a valid Hebrew transliteration would have been "HaTorah" i.e. it is one word. More to the point, English speakers would have understood "The Law" far more easily than they do "Ha Torah" which would have to be explained to many. What is the benifit? I have seen you repeatedly refer to the Old Testament as a "Tanach"; however, that accurately refers only to an OT in the Jewish book order, something you apparently do not use, so not only is the reference unnecessary, it is just plain wrong and just adds to peoples confusion.
I do not understand what is scary about the mistake you believe I made.
It is scary because it significantly changes the meaning of the text. Because I believe the bible to be the inspired word of God, I believe it is scary when someone changes the meaning of the text just to make it sound more Jewish.
quote:
How does the difference between Ha Torah and HaTorah or the fact that the Tanach is in a different create great harm. If I am incorrect, I will change how I write it, but are you just as particular with the king's english.
No great harm here, just a whole lot greater confusion to most (most have not studied Hebrew), and the inaccuracies of how you use these terms causes greater confusion even to those who do know.
quote:
If I refer to the Scriptures transcribes by Moshe' as "The Law" it implies that those Scriptures all commandments and statutes, and that what Adonai says is oppressive.
It never has implied that to me, I have never read the work of any scholar who has had that impression, and I have never met anyone in my church who has had that impression.
quote:
If I refer to the Scriptures written before the incarnation as the "old testiment" it implies that that they are somehow worn out and useless.
No, it simply implies that it is the oldest. Being the oldest doesn't imply "worn out" or "useless". In biblical studies, the oldest manuscripts are the ones that are most sought after because of their value to biblical scholarship.
quote:
These kinds of misunderstandings cause great harm and truly interfere with focused discussion. My inclusion of an Hebrew term along with the english is helpful in clarifying what it is I am talking about.
Not from what I have seen. Both myself and Odeliya read Hebrew and English, and I think we have both seen greater confusion rather than clarity when you have used these terms.
quote:
quote:
Why do you believe a Hebrew and/or Jewish word is better than an English ones?
The only reason is that many english words are contrived and carry many doctrinal connotations, which may not be correct. I hope you have noticed that I am not writing in hebrew, but have used terms in an attempt to focus on the more accurate biblical definitions.
And many Hebraisms carry doctrinal connotations which may or may not be correct.
quote:
By the way it is an hebrew word, not a hebrew word. In english the indefinite article before a vowel is an, and when h is followed by a vowel at the beginning of a word it becomes a vowel. That was scary! I'm glad we cleared that up before someone poked out an eye.
quote:
What about those words that came to us first in the Greek, why would those be inferior to the Jewish/Hebrew ones?
Use whatever language you want, write in bengali if the definition is more accurate, as long as you provide a translation until you are sure the person you are talking to understands the term.
Feel free to correct my usage, but to insist that I not use the term because I may not use it properly is equivalent to me asking you to never use the word "a" again because you just used it improperly.
BTW it is "a Hebrew word" and not "an Hebrew word"; the grammatical rule for determining the indefinite article is based on whether the following word has a vowel sound. In some cases words beginning with "h" have a vowel sound because the "h" is silent and therefore use the article "an". For example, "an hour", but in most English words the "h" is vocalized and then the article "a" is used. As in "a Hebrew word" or "a house". This can be verified in "The New Fowler's Modern English Usage" third edition, edited by R.W. Burchfield, published by Clarendon Press, Oxford, England, 1996.
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RE: shifting beliefs - 11/21/2008 2:31:00 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 997
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:
Benelchi: No, it simply implies that it is the oldest. Being the oldest doesn't imply "worn out" or "useless". In biblical studies, the oldest manuscripts are the ones that are most sought after because of their value to biblical scholarship.
From what I've seen from reading and conversing with other believers (new and older in the faith), Old Testament carries a connotation of something outdated, superceded or inferior to the New Testament. This is the sentiment I see.
There is a generally speaking an overall negative attitude toward the word "law."
I grew up fearing the law or those who represent the law, i.e police officers, judges... I seen abuses in the justice system where I grew up and became very leery of authority figure. Words such as law, police, judges did not conjure noble images of "to serve and protect" but rather "jail, oppression, court case, legalism..."
Generally speaking, when the word "Law" is used in reference to the Scriptures we don't think "a precept, to point out, direct, inform, instruct, teach" we tend to think "legalism and bondage, outdated..." I know this to be true. In fact let's conduct a quick survey, I'll start the thread, hopefully people are honest, about the attitudes about the law. I'll through in some words to see what is one's perception when they see or hear the term "law."
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: shifting beliefs - 11/21/2008 2:52:41 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3671
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
From what I've seen from reading and conversing with other believers (new and older in the faith), Old Testament carries a connotation of something outdated, superceded or inferior to the New Testament. This is the sentiment I see.
While I would be the first to admit that many Christians don't recognize the value of the OT, nor do they study it nearly enough, I don't think you can extrapolate from that the idea that they believe the OT is outdated. I think that BlueThread and your misunderstanding comes more from the fact that most Christians (even those who do study it and recognize its great value and importance in the life of a believer) do not share your interpretation of the OT.
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RE: shifting beliefs - 11/21/2008 4:30:14 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1669
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
From what I've seen from reading and conversing with other believers (new and older in the faith), Old Testament carries a connotation of something outdated, superceded or inferior to the New Testament. This is the sentiment I see.
While I would be the first to admit that many Christians don't recognize the value of the OT, nor do they study it nearly enough, I don't think you can extrapolate from that the idea that they believe the OT is outdated. I think that BlueThread and your misunderstanding comes more from the fact that most Christians (even those who do study it and recognize its great value and importance in the life of a believer) do not share your interpretation of the OT.
What misunderstanding are you talking about? Someone says they prefer I not do something . I stop doing it. Then after clarifying my reasons for doing so, I am forced to defend a practice that I am not longer engaging in. Why should I even bother?
Now, in this forum I have been repeatedly told outright that "the old testiment" has been done away with. This is not only in discussions of whether or not one should apply precepts from whatever it is you will let me call it. Many times when I refer to whatever it is you will let me call it, my statements are dismissed because "that is from the old testiment and that has been done away with".
In conclusion, if you are going to insist that I not use terms because I may not use them properly, then you had better start doing the same for everybody, regardless of their prefered interpretation of Scriptures. I have tried my best to work around bad word usage, falacious arguements, ad homonim attacks and some out right stupidity. However, I find it extremely ojectionable for you to give a pass to those who profess to live by the "Spirit of the Law", while nit picking me over the definiton of terms that others are clearly misusing.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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