|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 1/31/2010 9:17:50 AM
|
|
|
gralan
Posts: 2308
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
Status: offline
|
That we have attributes given to us "built-in" as it were in our creation as human beings, it is spoilt by sin and our spiritual death.
God is love. God is holy. These are not effects of God's existence, they are essential qualities an eternal, infinite, all-knowing, all-powerful necessary Being has. Our God is an awesome God.
Our job is to learn to love in the manner and with the love that God has. Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect is the command of Jesus in this regard (if you read the plain context of the verse).
I enjoyed reading the posts here; keep up the faithful walk, just like you are doing.
< Message edited by gralan -- 1/31/2010 5:58:16 PM >
_____________________________
suffering servant, gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/8/2010 6:38:15 AM
|
|
|
sallyannester
Posts: 140
Joined: 1/7/2010
From: Australia
Status: offline
|
< Message edited by sallyannester -- 2/8/2010 7:12:57 AM >
_____________________________
We are so insignificant compared to the size of the known universe. But, we were significant enough for the Creator of the Universe to visit us.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/8/2010 6:55:35 AM
|
|
|
gralan
Posts: 2308
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
Status: offline
|
sallyannester
Thanks for the link to wordsmyth on your post.
Wonderful site.
_____________________________
suffering servant, gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/8/2010 7:08:01 AM
|
|
|
RSchorne
Posts: 157
Joined: 1/9/2010
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan
Our job is to learn to love in the manner and with the love that God has. Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect is the command of Jesus in this regard (if you read the plain context of the verse).
As an "outsider", I find this idea a little confusing.
From what I understand, and please correct me if I'm wrong, to love "in the manner and with the love God has" means to love and reward those who love us back and to punish (eternally) those who do not.
Sounds like a strange sort of "love".
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/8/2010 7:27:50 AM
|
|
|
sallyannester
Posts: 140
Joined: 1/7/2010
From: Australia
Status: offline
|
quote:
As an "outsider", I find this idea a little confusing.
From what I understand, and please correct me if I'm wrong, to love "in the manner and with the love God has" means to love and reward those who love us back and to punish (eternally) those who do not.
Sounds like a strange sort of "love".
God's love is the same for all. He sent his son, Jesus Christ into this world to die for us all,so that we may believe on him and be forgiven of our sins. (Only through death can sins be forgiven.) And Jesus did this once for all. Not again and again. (Before him a lamb had to be sacrificed every year for the sins of people to be forgiven. It did not stop there. Jesus arose from the death, defeated sin, death & hell. He ascended into Eternal life and is preparing a place for all those who have accepted the free gift of Grace that God has offered through him.
Jesus did not come into this world to judge the world but to save it!
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to be its judge, but to be its savior.
As for punishing those eternally who do not do what he knows is best. God will not do anything to you unless you want it! In other words if you constantly reject Him and his authority He will eventually reject you.
_____________________________
We are so insignificant compared to the size of the known universe. But, we were significant enough for the Creator of the Universe to visit us.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/8/2010 11:23:49 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 5764
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
As an "outsider", I find this idea a little confusing. Of course, that's exactly what Paul was talking about in 1 Cor 1:18-25.
quote:
From what I understand, and please correct me if I'm wrong, to love "in the manner and with the love God has" means to love and reward those who love us back and to punish (eternally) those who do not. I don't need your permission to correct you when you're wrong! 
God's love is unconditional as described in John 3:16, Rom 5:8, Gal 2:20, Eph 2:4, 2 Thess 2:16, and 1 John 4:10-11 and 4:19. God allows us to choose damnation when we reject His unconditional love. That is not our punishment, it is the consequence established by the all-loving God who created us.
quote:
Sounds like a strange sort of "love". Indeed - Isaiah 55:9
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/8/2010 5:02:21 PM
|
|
|
RSchorne
Posts: 157
Joined: 1/9/2010
Status: offline
|
Very strange.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/8/2010 5:42:02 PM
|
|
|
RSchorne
Posts: 157
Joined: 1/9/2010
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I don't need your permission to correct you when you're wrong!
No, I've seen you do this many times.
The added eye roll makes it all the more special.
Thanks.
quote:
God allows us to choose damnation when we reject His unconditional love. That is not our punishment, it is the consequence established by the all-loving God who created us.
Yes, the "consequence established by the all-loving God who created us".
He established, designed, created Hell specifically for those who did not return His "unconditional love".
Isn't this the exact opposite of "unconditional love".
Perhaps I've always misused the word "love".
For instance, the soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his comrades (to borrow an example from ManimalX in another thread) demonstrates love.
Jesus dying for our sins demonstrates love in precisely the same way.
A father of a teenager who sticks by his daughter or son despite the abuse and tries to show a better way demonstrates love.
But someone who creates a place of eternal torture and threatens its use to those who do not love Him in return does not.
It demonstrates terror.
At least by our meagre human standards of the meaning of the word "love".
And the word terror.
If you want to include ghastly retribution with no hope of reprieve for those who do not return love as part of the definition of the term "unconditional love", that's fine.
But I think we're probably speaking different languages.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/8/2010 6:14:35 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 5764
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
But I think we're probably speaking different languages. No doubt about it, RS! There's really nothing more to say...
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/8/2010 9:28:52 PM
|
|
|
RSchorne
Posts: 157
Joined: 1/9/2010
Status: offline
|
I agree there's certainly a philosophical impasse.
But I'm still very interested in how you justify the term unconditional in terms of reprisals for unrequited love.
I mean, millions of other people agree with you.
I'd just love to understand why.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/9/2010 9:44:35 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 5764
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
I'd just love to understand why. Then just read the verses I posted in #56 above with an open mind and perhaps God will illumine your understanding, RS.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/9/2010 2:02:29 PM
|
|
|
gralan
Posts: 2308
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
Status: offline
|
I've been educated now. Thank you for schooling me.
_____________________________
suffering servant, gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/9/2010 8:40:19 PM
|
|
|
EaZiE
Posts: 75
Joined: 7/2/2007
Status: offline
|
RSchorne,
A few things about hell. First it was originally created for the fallen angels:
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Mt. 25: 41.
Second, someone that doesn't believe in Jesus (and all he taught about our condition) isn't just not accepting unconditional love. They are calling God a liar. Believing intimates an upright lifestyle.
If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. 1 Jn. 1:6-10.
A lot of people don't like to believe that God has spoken to them. But every man has received a witness and many the whole truth.
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Heb. 10:26-27
I guess an analogy would be a child never obeying their parents. Wouldn't the parent be acting in love to discipline them. But now we are talking about God from whom there is the danger of eternal punishment.
_____________________________
In a word, the future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time--for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays. -Screwtape Letters
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/9/2010 9:46:21 PM
|
|
|
RSchorne
Posts: 157
Joined: 1/9/2010
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: EaZiE
I guess an analogy would be a child never obeying their parents. Wouldn't the parent be acting in love to discipline them. But now we are talking about God from whom there is the danger of eternal punishment.
I do like the analogy of the parent.
The parent would be acting in love to discipline their child.
On the other hand I think it's stretching the definition of "Love" to imply that discipline should include and eternity of suffering, particularly if the parent 1) created the child to act the way he does and 2) knew precisely how the child was going to act before he did it.
That's not "Love".
So maybe the essence of God is a whole lot closer to Holiness.......
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/10/2010 4:02:38 AM
|
|
|
abraxas
Posts: 295
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
It's totally illogical to state that "Hell was originally intended for the Devil and his angels", UNLESS God was taken by surprise at how things played out. If he knew when he created the place--or the state, whichever it is--that human creations would also end up there, then it was not originally intended ONLY for the Devil and his angels.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/10/2010 6:21:30 AM
|
|
|
cposey
Posts: 632
Joined: 8/20/2009
Status: offline
|
I would say that it is absolutely true that we should view God and all of HIS characteristics or essence or whatever word you would like, to be seperated, distinguished from and understood. Its like looking at a baseball and saying it is round. There are so many componets that make up a baseball. No one thing completes it. So yes God is all things that HE says that HE is. Going to the OP, it would seem to me that the author is just trying to get the point across that we must allow ourselves to learn and understand every facet that God says HE is. Focusing on one for a time is not a bad thing. Learning that and then moving on to the next, will eventually lead to a better and more complete understanding of the entire character of God. The error and problem many face is that they pick the parts of God that best fit into their lifestyle and focus on those and those alone. Such as saying love is most important or that holiness is most important. God is God and that is the all encompassing truth. Every characteristic HE claims is no more important than any other.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/10/2010 1:32:15 PM
|
|
|
lightbeamrider
Posts: 302
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
|
It's Holiness in that He loves His elect with a Holy love. He is three times Holy God and He will bring about His Holy justice to those who persecute His chosen. Matt.18:7. As for hell, folks are warned about that before hand. So it should not come about as too much of a surprise. Christ draws all men to Himself but most in this era are drawn to Christ for judgement.
He has mercy on whom He has mercy and He hardens whom He hardens.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/16/2010 2:12:07 AM
|
|
|
JohnD70X7
Posts: 100
Joined: 2/1/2010
Status: offline
|
You mentioned Bible study. In Bible study we learn many things. To discern voice of the Holy Spirit (our Holy Tutor) above all the voices (demons, false prophets, false doctrine, the traditions of men, our own fallen fleshly desires and selfishness... all which whisper in such a way as to seem or sound true and truthful...)... to understand there are several ways to look at a person place or thing... God, for example... putting aside the perceived contradictions on the surface by the in depth research in the Spirit and the scriptures (which is how to discern all truth)... and is why the Name (HaShem) put his word the Bible above all that is his holy Name...
Psalm 138:2
2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
God is Spirit. That is what God is in essence. Other ways to describe him are in fact matters of speech... for example to say God is the beginner or father of love is fact and true... but to emphasize the point and the greatness of it it says God IS love... the way we would say A. Rod IS baseball... etc... this is also true about the holiness (set-apartness of God) he is so set apart he IS set-apart (he IS holiness).... we are too often the victims of our own terms that we lose sight of the meaning or original intent...
Anti-christ, for example. The Bible speaks of a false messiah and in the Greek we translate it anti-christ and it comes to mean all who oppose Christ... and is a good translation / application... but it must not put false images of who or what the ultimate Antichrist will be... a false messiah who will win the hearts of the Jews who reject the true Messiah as well as the entire world except for those who believe in the genuine Messiah Yeshua (Jesus).
1 John 2:18-19
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
_____________________________
Give to those who hold to untruth:
Answers they cannot question,
And questions they cannot answer.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/19/2010 11:39:53 AM
|
|
|
EaZiE
Posts: 75
Joined: 7/2/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: RSchorne
I do like the analogy of the parent.
The parent would be acting in love to discipline their child.
On the other hand I think it's stretching the definition of "Love" to imply that discipline should include and eternity of suffering, particularly if the parent 1) created the child to act the way he does and 2) knew precisely how the child was going to act before he did it.
That's not "Love".
So maybe the essence of God is a whole lot closer to Holiness.......
I understand what you mean. I guess the love only shows up if we heed what God says, otherwise we receive the punishment, which isn't discipline since its final. "Hell will forever be a monument to human dignity and the value of human choice." -Moreland
_____________________________
In a word, the future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time--for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays. -Screwtape Letters
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/20/2010 3:30:09 PM
|
|
|
RSchorne
Posts: 157
Joined: 1/9/2010
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: EaZiE
quote:
ORIGINAL: RSchorne
I do like the analogy of the parent.
The parent would be acting in love to discipline their child.
On the other hand I think it's stretching the definition of "Love" to imply that discipline should include and eternity of suffering, particularly if the parent 1) created the child to act the way he does and 2) knew precisely how the child was going to act before he did it.
That's not "Love".
So maybe the essence of God is a whole lot closer to Holiness.......
I understand what you mean. I guess the love only shows up if we heed what God says, otherwise we receive the punishment, which isn't discipline since its final. "Hell will forever be a monument to human dignity and the value of human choice." -Moreland
Yes, I think that this is very plain.
God will show love to you as long as you do what He says.
Certainly the antithesis of "unconditional" love.
Maybe only people are capable of that.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/22/2010 12:22:37 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 5764
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
Yes, I think that this is very plain.
God will show love to you as long as you do what He says. I gather you didn't take my advice in post #61.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/22/2010 10:41:27 PM
|
|
|
JohnD70X7
Posts: 100
Joined: 2/1/2010
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: RSchorne
Yes, I think that this is very plain.
God will show love to you as long as you do what He says.
John 14:26-2726 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
John 16:26-27
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
_____________________________
Give to those who hold to untruth:
Answers they cannot question,
And questions they cannot answer.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/22/2010 10:42:58 PM
|
|
|
JohnD70X7
Posts: 100
Joined: 2/1/2010
Status: offline
|
Perhaps those who claim God's love is unconditional care to show the scriptures that state this...???
_____________________________
Give to those who hold to untruth:
Answers they cannot question,
And questions they cannot answer.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/22/2010 10:45:29 PM
|
|
|
JohnD70X7
Posts: 100
Joined: 2/1/2010
Status: offline
|
"Unconditional love" is a logical fallacy. Can one love another unconditionally who makes them hate them?
If one truly understands love (that it is not just a feeling it's an act of will) there must needs be conditions.
_____________________________
Give to those who hold to untruth:
Answers they cannot question,
And questions they cannot answer.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/22/2010 10:57:28 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 5764
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
Perhaps those who claim God's love is unconditional care to show the scriptures that state this...??? I already have in post #56!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
