RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check???
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 9:39:09 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 7683
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wolfvanzandt
I don't think 100% should be tested.
Why, I say test everyone of them before they recieve a check; test "Hot" then no check.
Come back in 90 days and try again.
If they will enter a drug rehab, then send the check to the rehab to defray the cost of rehab.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 10:14:20 AM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 123
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
You have to give them all sorts of other information when you apply for benefits, such as copies of drivers' licenses, social security cards, birth certificates, home insurance policies, pay stubs, tax forms, bank statement, titles to your vehicles, etc. If it's constitutional to require documentation of every aspect of your life, why would a drug test not be constitutional?
Driver's Licenses, SS Card, and Birth Cert are for verification of citizenship and to prove who you are, that doesn't tell you anything about your personal life.
Home Insurance, pay stubs, tax forms, bank statements, titles; that's all to verify you are under the income qualifications. Not of it involves your personal life.
A drug test gives a lot of information, it tells them about medical problems, and diet, stuff that shouldn't be anyone's business.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 10:17:37 AM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 123
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
It's voluntary, though. No one is making you apply for benefits, and if it were a known part of applying for benefits, it wouldn't be the same thing.
What about finding a job, does your employer have the right to force you to drug test, do they have the right to know what you do in your personal time, what you eat, medical problems, anything like that.
You have to have a job, they are taking your unalienable right away.
You make an agreement to your employer about a certain standard of job performance. If that starts declining, and there are signs of drug use affecting it, by all means test them, but drug use doesn't mean low job performance, and being able to connect those 2 is a stretch.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 10:29:49 AM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 123
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pink..
Eliminating drug users and dealers from the welfare roles would harm no one and help almost everyone.
See, the problem with this, is it won't help everyone, it invades peoples privacy. Just because the government is giving you money doesn't mean they can force you to give up personal information.
Same with controlling how you spend your money. I'm assuming your main concern is that these 'drug users' will be spending their checks on drugs. First of all, you can't just assume that, but also what they spend there money on isn't the government's business.
It's like the bail out with the banks, I don't agree with bailing them out in the first place, but if the government gives them money, it doens't give them a right to control how they spend it. Once it's given, it can't be controlled.
If the government is so worried about it, they shouldn't provide it in the first place, instead of invading your privacy and life to make sure you are not spending it on junk.
Would you be okay with the idea of the government having random home searches for people on welfare to insure there is no illegal activity? That would surely make sure no one is breaking the law.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 11:46:49 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 7683
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
A drug test gives a lot of information, it tells them about medical problems, and diet, stuff that shouldn't be anyone's business.
Test can be preformed for a very narrow group of substances, and has nothing to do with what you are refering.
quote:
Not of it involves your personal life.
If one has a live in boyfriend or girlfriend; that must be disclosed and the person Idenified; sounds personal to me.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 12:12:12 PM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 123
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
Would you be okay with the idea of the government having random home searches for people on welfare to insure there is no illegal activity? That would surely make sure no one is breaking the law.
Sure. Those who live in government housing are subjected to routine housing inspections so why would this be any different? Yes they go to make sure that everything is well maintained with the facility, but if the way you live doesn't meet their standards they are will within their right to remove you.
It's the same thing.
Basically what you are saying is to give something for nothing. Welfare is not charity; it's government assistance. It's a hand out that was made to be a hand up and somehow got twisted in the translation. Now it's turn into a necessity.
Ugh. 
I'm not saying people don't waste government provided funds on junk, and I'm not saying they should, but I'm saying people have a right to be left alone until probable cause. So, to you, any government program that isn't mandatory is considered a privilege and they can tack on any rules they want, like drug testing, random house searches, heck, they could request a physical and it's okay because it isn't mandatory?
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 12:22:31 PM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 123
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
A drug test gives a lot of information, it tells them about medical problems, and diet, stuff that shouldn't be anyone's business.
Test can be preformed for a very narrow group of substances, and has nothing to do with what you are refering.
quote:
Not of it involves your personal life.
If one has a live in boyfriend or girlfriend; that must be disclosed and the person Idenified; sounds personal to me.
Thanks
RC
Medications such as Dexatrim, Advil and Aleve are drugs that read positive for THC and Ecstasy. It creates a false positive, now you have to tell the government what legal medication you are on, it's not really any of their business.
You are correct the boyfriend thing does sound personal, and that isn't there business either. They are worried that the boyfriend's income will affect the qualifications and if the person has assistance through someone else, they might be cheating the system.
It's wrong to invade privacy, they are going off the idea that you are guilty until proven innocent. I think it's better to assume that they are following the law, and when the time comes that they have reason to doubt, take a look into there life then and not before.
I don't want to be treated like a suspect every time I sign up for assistance, or join a gov program, or apply for a freakin job.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 12:39:26 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 7683
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
I don't want to be treated like a suspect every time I sign up for assistance, or join a gov program, or apply for a freakin job.
Well then here is your sign; if you don't want to be treated like a suspect; don't sign up for assistance.
Drug testing should be instituted for folks that want to recieve welfare.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 12:44:04 PM
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Hadassah_
Posts: 8791
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quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
I'm not saying people don't waste government provided funds on junk, and I'm not saying they should, but I'm saying people have a right to be left alone until probable cause. So, to you, any government program that isn't mandatory is considered a privilege and they can tack on any rules they want, like drug testing, random house searches, heck, they could request a physical and it's okay because it isn't mandatory?
If you want the assistance bad enough you're going to jump through whatever hoops you have to, to establish them. If it comes down to me not affording to be able to provide food, clothing, and shelter for my child, and invading my privacy, sorry...but my life is an open book. Invade all you want.
The difference between me and a lot of welfare recipients is, I won't live on it for the rest of my life; I will use it as it's intended: to be a hand up.
_____________________________
I  Vinegar!!!!
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 1:08:58 PM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 123
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
I'm not saying people don't waste government provided funds on junk, and I'm not saying they should, but I'm saying people have a right to be left alone until probable cause. So, to you, any government program that isn't mandatory is considered a privilege and they can tack on any rules they want, like drug testing, random house searches, heck, they could request a physical and it's okay because it isn't mandatory?
If you want the assistance bad enough you're going to jump through whatever hoops you have to, to establish them. If it comes down to me not affording to be able to provide food, clothing, and shelter for my child, and invading my privacy, sorry...but my life is an open book. Invade all you want.
The difference between me and a lot of welfare recipients is, I won't live on it for the rest of my life; I will use it as it's intended: to be a hand up.
That's true, if I need it bad enough I will jump through hoops, that doesn't make those hoops right though does it?
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 1:24:28 PM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 123
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
quote:
ORIGINAL: wretched1
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
~~~
I don't see myself in favor of anything in that post. I asked questions. Perhaps I read too much into:
"I can't see them testing 100%."
I assumed that you were going to use some reasonable criteria for determining who should and should not be tested :-)
That sounds like 'when did you stop beating your wife' type comment. 
If I were running the show it'd be anyone with a drug history, or anyone who looked like a stoner.
Or test everyone when they first apply and if they test positive they don't get money.
Drug History is absolutely understandable, 'looks like a stoner', not so much. Define 'looks like a stoner please'.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
A drug test gives a lot of information, it tells them about medical problems, and diet, stuff that shouldn't be anyone's business.
Where are you coming up with this stuff? They weren't given permission to check diet, medical problems, etc.
I already posted an example. False positives can occur through certain foods you eat and medications you take. You will have to disclose all that information if they question you about it. Also in a drug test, you can see whether or not some one is being treated for a heart condition, depression, epilepsy or diabetes.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
quote:
You are correct the boyfriend thing does sound personal, and that isn't there business either.
Yes, it is.
No, it isn't.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 1:26:18 PM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 123
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
I don't want to be treated like a suspect every time I sign up for assistance, or join a gov program, or apply for a freakin job.
Well then here is your sign; if you don't want to be treated like a suspect; don't sign up for assistance.
Drug testing should be instituted for folks that want to recieve welfare.
Thanks
RC
What about applying for a job, how do you feel about mandatory drug testing for those?
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 2:11:14 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 7683
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
What about applying for a job, how do you feel about mandatory drug testing for those?
Absolutely a necessity, I have built a couple of business over the years (Pest Control, Marketing), and we drug tested and did full background checks on every applicant, and regular test and checks while they were employed.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 2:35:44 PM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 123
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
What about applying for a job, how do you feel about mandatory drug testing for those?
Absolutely a necessity, I have built a couple of business over the years (Pest Control, Marketing), and we drug tested and did full background checks on every applicant, and regular test and checks while they were employed.
Thanks
RC
I disagree with that as well. A employer has the right to expect that their employees are not on drugs at the workplace. That is absolutely true. Goes for sleeping, slacking off, talking on the phone while at work. It's about job performance, and a drug test don't measure job performance.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 3:11:14 PM
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macokjc
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quote:
Well then here is your sign; if you don't want to be treated like a suspect; don't sign up for assistance.
But WHY? RC, why? Why do you look down on with so much disgust on one particular part of society? Why do you think that somebody who is struggling - many, many, times through no fault of their own, should be treated like a suspect?
I have asked this 2 times, and you are ignoring the question. Where do you stop? Everybody who drives on public roads is receiving some part of gov. assistance - just a different form. Should they have random highway stops to check for drugs. What about everyone on social security? Yup, get them all in there and make them give a sample? What about families on WIC? What about any student in a public school?
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 3:20:45 PM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 123
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
An employer can state that the employee MUST remain DRUG FREE while employed and if not, then it's ground for termination. It's breech of contract. An employer can also say you HAVE to use their product and use of a competitor can be grounds for termination.
An employer can state that women MUST wear pantyhose and heels EVERY DAY for work. To do otherwise would be breech of contract.
Now, if they didn't specify that women have to wear pantyhose and then fire someone for not doing so, they're in the wrong.
That's fine, it's illegal to do pot anyway, but the Government isn't drug testing everybody, they don't have the right to under the 4th amendment.
The Employer can't raid your house to make sure you aren't doing drugs, why give them permission to raid your body. Yeah, if they say no drugs, and there is a suspicion of drug use, maybe someone saw you shooting up at work or you came to work stoned, by all means, test him and fire him, but don't test everyone that comes in, if the Government doesn't have the right, neither should a company.
An employer can tell you to do a lot of things on the job, but they usually don't affect your personal life at home, such as smoking, you can't smoke on work property, but you can leave the building and cross the street and smoke and go right back.
< Message edited by enter_address_here -- 3/8/2010 3:27:32 PM >
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 3:25:41 PM
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Hadassah_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
An employer can state that the employee MUST remain DRUG FREE while employed and if not, then it's ground for termination. It's breech of contract. An employer can also say you HAVE to use their product and use of a competitor can be grounds for termination.
An employer can state that women MUST wear pantyhose and heels EVERY DAY for work. To do otherwise would be breech of contract.
Now, if they didn't specify that women have to wear pantyhose and then fire someone for not doing so, they're in the wrong.
That's fine, it's illegal to do pot anyway, but the Government isn't drug testing everybody, they don't have the right to under the 4th amendment.
The Employer can't raid your house to make sure you aren't doing drugs, why give them permission to raid your body. Yeah, if they say no drugs, and there is a suspicion of drug use, maybe someone saw you shooting up at work or you came to work stoned, by all means, test him and fire him, but don't test everyone that comes in, if the Government doesn't have the right, neither should a company.
When you work for the government one of the first things you do is take a drug test.
And here's where the conversation went into a complete circle: We think the government SHOULD have the right to drug test for welfare recipients.
And btw...we pay our own social security. Every time I get paid there is a little area marked, SOCIAL SECURITY and it shows how much has been taken out of my check.
_____________________________
I Vinegar!!!!
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 4:44:17 PM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 123
Joined: 7/6/2009
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How about this. What do you consider Welfare? Food stamps? Unemployment Checks? Financial Aid for students? Grants issued by the government but raised by private organizations? What about corporate welfare, such as the bailouts?
Should all the above be drug tested? You know I think the government does a lot of funding for PBS, maybe everyone that watches Sesame Street should take a drug test, we got to put the kids in line at an early age.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 4:44:26 PM
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SteveSund
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Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
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An employer can require a drug test as a condition of employment. There is no law, regulation, case, or Constitutional provision that prevents this. If you don't like it, you are free to apply to another employer that doesn't require a drug test. There was a local company that said all employees had to quit smoking, both at work and outside of work. They gave them a period of time to do this and provided help in stopping. At the end of the time frame, they fired the 3 or 4 that did not quit.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 4:50:50 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 7683
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
How about this. What do you consider Welfare? Food stamps? Unemployment Checks? Financial Aid for students? Grants issued by the government but raised by private organizations? What about corporate welfare, such as the bailouts?
Should all the above be drug tested? You know I think the government does a lot of funding for PBS, maybe everyone that watches Sesame Street should take a drug test, we got to put the kids in line at an early age.
Absolutrely they should be tested, and a lot of those folks on PBS do seem to be really stoned.
Actually PBS should be scrapped.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 4:54:48 PM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 123
Joined: 7/6/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SteveSund
An employer can require a drug test as a condition of employment. There is no law, regulation, case, or Constitutional provision that prevents this. If you don't like it, you are free to apply to another employer that doesn't require a drug test. There was a local company that said all employees had to quit smoking, both at work and outside of work. They gave them a period of time to do this and provided help in stopping. At the end of the time frame, they fired the 3 or 4 that did not quit.
Yeah, I'm aware that it happens, but that doesn't mean it's not Unconstitutional. That's my point, there are a lot of laws that I'm sure you don't agree with, point is, though they can do that now, should they be able to?
Should they be able to make you stop smoking just to get a cost deduction from their healthcare provider. Also, because they have a rule that says no smoking, are they allowed to have random health checks to check your lungs to see if you have been smoking?
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 4:56:21 PM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 123
Joined: 7/6/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
How about this. What do you consider Welfare? Food stamps? Unemployment Checks? Financial Aid for students? Grants issued by the government but raised by private organizations? What about corporate welfare, such as the bailouts?
Should all the above be drug tested? You know I think the government does a lot of funding for PBS, maybe everyone that watches Sesame Street should take a drug test, we got to put the kids in line at an early age.
Absolutrely they should be tested, and a lot of those folks on PBS do seem to be really stoned.
Actually PBS should be scrapped.
Thanks
RC
How about public schools, and free clinics, and public parks?
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