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RE: Prophecy - 3/10/2010 7:11:38 PM
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SamsonUSA
Posts: 2016
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From: Laguna Beach. Presently an Arizona desert dweller
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quote:
It's an undeniable fact of life that God can change his mind.
Only in your mind He does.
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
_____________________________
Ronald Reagan said, "I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born."
Similarly, I've noticed that everyone who preaches Limited Atonement are already saved.
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RE: Prophecy - 3/10/2010 7:29:53 PM
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SamsonUSA
Posts: 2016
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From: Laguna Beach. Presently an Arizona desert dweller
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quote:
So Fribbles is it your contention that God reacts to man in order to fulfill His plans?
Some of his plans, yes.
quote:
Do you believe that God shuffles around and decrees future events based on what man does?
I wouldn't use the phrase "shuffles around," but yes.
Fribbles thank you for your candour in answering my questions.
I for one one have a difficult time worshipping a God who was at the whim of His creation. Perhaps that's just me.
Fribbles would you kindly exposit the following verses for me please?
John 11:3-6; So the sisters sent word to Him, saying, "Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick."
But when Jesus heard this, He said, "This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it."
5Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.
So when He heard that he was sick, He then stayed two days longer in the place where He was.
Why did Jesus spend two days longer where He was?
Did He explicitly know what He was going to do and what the outcome would be, or was He irresolutely placing His trust in God and hoping that everything would work out for the best?
_____________________________
Ronald Reagan said, "I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born."
Similarly, I've noticed that everyone who preaches Limited Atonement are already saved.
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RE: Prophecy - 3/10/2010 7:36:20 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 205
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
quote:
It's an undeniable fact of life that God can change his mind.
Only in your mind He does.
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
How is this relevant? It doesn't say he can't change his mind. The context does not at all imply that God never changes his mind, only that he will not change his mind about blessing Israel. Look at the context. Balak was trying to bribe Balaam into cursing Israel.
Num 22:17 For I will honor you greatly, and whatever you tell me I will do. So come, put a curse on this nation for me.’”
God was not going to change his mind about Abraham's descendants just because Balak wanted them cursed. However, God actually did change his mind about Israel on several occasions. You can't overrule multitudes of stories of God actually changing his mind in response to people by taking this verse out of context. God himself even says that he does and will change his mind in response to people's behavior. You are interpreting this in a way that contradicts Jeremiah 18:7-10.
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RE: Prophecy - 3/10/2010 7:41:40 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 205
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
I for one one have a difficult time worshiping a God who was at the whim of His creation. Perhaps that's just me. Do you have a difficult time honoring your father and your mother because they responded to your behavior and may have changed their plans in response to you? Does that mean they were completely "at your whim"?
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RE: Prophecy - 3/10/2010 10:25:39 PM
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drmark
Posts: 5782
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
It's an undeniable fact of life that God can change his mind. Not to the Calvinist who lives and breathes exhaustive divine foreknowledge...
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Prophecy - 3/10/2010 11:02:52 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
On the thread dedicated to open-theism that used to be on here, people would often tell me this. I would ask for them to explain passages such as 2 Kings 20. Since I have such a serious problem, I imagined that they would be ready and willing to provide a sensible answer to these passages. This never happened. Perhaps you will be the first?
If a sensible answer has been provided but an individual chooses to ignore it, that does not mean the answer was not provided.
You have chosen to ignore everything that has been said thus far.
The fundamental premise in discussing God is that He is beyond human understanding and His ways are beyong human understanding (Isa. 55:8,9). However, since you would like to create a god in your own image, you will never accept this truth. And open theists prefer to have a god who resembles them rather than the Lord God Almighty.
Did God know from before the creation of Adam that Hezekiah would have a very serious sickness?
Did God know from before the creation of Adam that Hezekiah would not take the announcement of his impending death calmly and peacefully?
Did God know from before the creation of Adam that He would extend Hezekiah's life by another 15 years from the date of the annoucement of his demise?
Did God want to test Hezekiah's faith and cause him to pray for deliverance from his sickness and impending death?
Did God have a plan for Hezekiah's life long before He created him?
Does God have a plan for every believer's life long before He creates him?
To the one who believe in the infinitely omniscient God, this is mere trifles for Him. To the one who makes a god in his own image, it presents insuperable difficulties.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Prophecy - 3/10/2010 11:03:15 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2476
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Fribbles thank you for your candour in answering my questions.
You're welcome.
quote:
I for one one have a difficult time worshipping a God who was at the whim of His creation.
I wouldn't say God is at our whim. I would say that he has chosen to involve his creation in his plans in a meaningful way.
quote:
Why did Jesus spend two days longer where He was?
Because he had a plan for what was to happen - not that he necessarily had foreknowledge of the event, but that he was able to accurately predict how events would play out.
quote:
Did He explicitly know what He was going to do and what the outcome would be
This is a possibility. There are certain events in human history that God has chosen to establish as his will in an irrefutable way. However, I see no reason to necessarily place the death of Lazarus in this category, as I will discuss below.
quote:
was He irresolutely placing His trust in God and hoping that everything would work out for the best?
You've left out an important component of the equation - the divine knowledge and wisdom of Christ. Just as Jesus saw Nathaniel under the fig tree, Jesus was aware of the sickness of Lazarus, he was aware of how far the sickness had progressed, and he was aware how long it would be until Lazarus had died. Also, he was aware that he could bring about a far greater lesson from raising Lazarus than merely healing Lazarus.
Another interesting fact - Lazarus would have died anyway, regardless of how long Jesus waited. Unless there is a two day gap once Jesus arrives in his town, that is. Lazarus had been in the tomb for four days already. Why Jesus still chose to wait two days is a good question, but it is perhaps outside the range of our discussion here.
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RE: Prophecy - 3/10/2010 11:09:01 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2476
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
If a sensible answer has been provided but an individual chooses to ignore it, that does not mean the answer was not provided.
I quite agree.
quote:
You have chosen to ignore everything that has been said thus far.
I disagree.
quote:
The fundamental premise in discussing God is that He is beyond human understanding and His ways are beyong human understanding
And yet you claim to have a comfortable grasp on the nature of his omniscience. Fascinating.
quote:
However, since you would like to create a god in your own image, you will never accept this truth.
I'm not the one twisting Scripture to say God never changes his mind in any sense.
quote:
Did God want to test Hezekiah's faith and cause him to pray for deliverance from his sickness and impending death?
Then why did God state Hezekiah's death as a fact? There is no conditions attached to Isaiah's pronouncement. There is no "You will die! ...Unless you pray, then you're good." There is no, "This sickness will surely cause you to perish, if you don't change your ways!" Nothing of the sort is hinted at. God tells Hezekiah he will die from this sickness. Period.
quote:
To the one who believe in the infinitely omniscient God, this is mere trifles for Him.
And this is part of my frustration in this discussion. Any question against your view is a mere trifle, hardly to be condescended with the merest attention, instead of taking time to discuss what Scripture actually says free from assumptions.
I also don't appreciate the accusation that open-theism does not adhere to God's infinite omniscience. The disagreement is not whether or not God is omniscient - the disagreement is in what the omniscience entails.
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RE: Prophecy - 3/11/2010 1:38:28 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1811
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quote:
Then why did God state Hezekiah's death as a fact?
Elementary my dear Watson. In God's eyes Hezekiah's death was an accomplished fact, whether at that very moment or 100 years thence.
quote:
There is no conditions attached to Isaiah's pronouncement. There is no "You will die! ...Unless you pray, then you're good." There is no, "This sickness will surely cause you to perish, if you don't change your ways!" Nothing of the sort is hinted at.
Correct. And the reason for the absence of conditions was because there were none. This announcement was made in order to trigger Hezekiah's faith and trust in the living God so that he would turn to Him in earnest prayer for deliverance. God puts difficult circumstances in every life for the very same reason.
quote:
God tells Hezekiah he will die from this sickness. Period.
No. He does not. Neither in 2 Kings 20 nor in Isaiah 38 do we read the words "For thou shalt die FROM THIS SICKNESS, and not live". The words are limited to "For thou shalt die, and not live". God is always very specific and precise with His words, therefore no one can come back today and say that God actually said that Hezekiah would die from that sickness.
The reason for the choice of words is quite clear in hindsight. We know that this announcement would drive Hezekiah to the Lord, and that the Lord would extend his life another 15 years. We know that Hezekiah was "sick unto death" or on his way to dying, but God knew differently. God knew that Hezekiah would pray and God would grant him his request. This is what Scripture means when it says that God knows the end from the beginning.
If you are prepared to accept this perfect omniscience of God, then this should be the end of this discussion. If not, you have a very serious problem.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Prophecy - 3/11/2010 9:07:02 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2476
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
No. He does not. Neither in 2 Kings 20 nor in Isaiah 38 do we read the words "For thou shalt die FROM THIS SICKNESS, and not live". The words are limited to "For thou shalt die, and not live".
As I mentioned in post #53, it depends on what translation you're using. Unless you presume to know more about Hebrew than, say, the translation team at the NIV, you have to admit that there is a legitimate reading of 2 Kings 20:1 that indicates that Hezekiah will die from this specific illness.
If you look at how this word is used just in 2 Kings, it is used both in the sense of "recover" or "continue to live," so this argument appears, to me, to be a wash.
Do you have any explanation outside the notion that verse 1 doesn't say Hezekiah will die from this illness?
quote:
If you are prepared to accept this perfect omniscience of God
This is the third time I've said this. Hopefully third time's the charm.
I am not prepared to accept the perfect omniscience of God, because I do not need to be prepared. Why? Because I have already accepted it. I just define omniscience differently than the classic understanding.
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RE: Prophecy - 3/11/2010 9:15:41 AM
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drmark
Posts: 5782
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
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quote:
No. He does not. Neither in 2 Kings 20 nor in Isaiah 38 do we read the words "For thou shalt die FROM THIS SICKNESS, and not live". The words are limited to "For thou shalt die, and not live". NO, Ezra, the words are NOT limited to this! The prophet gives the specific command for Hezekiah to "set his house in order" because he will die. No one with a grain of common sense could misunderstand the implication of this command to be anything other than death is imminent and certain!
quote:
God is always very specific and precise with His words, therefore no one can come back today and say that God actually said that Hezekiah would die from that sickness. So why did God's prophet tell King Ahab that dogs would lick up his blood out side the city of Jezreel where Naboth died (1 Ki 21:19) but instead dogs licked up Ahab's blood where his chariot was washed at a pool in Samaria (1 Ki 22:38). Do you realize that Jezreel is 20 miles from Samaria - how specific and precise were those words?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Prophecy - 3/11/2010 4:02:23 PM
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SamsonUSA
Posts: 2016
Joined: 10/5/2008
From: Laguna Beach. Presently an Arizona desert dweller
Status: offline
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benjoseph,
quote:
You can't overrule multitudes of stories of God actually changing his mind in response to people by taking this verse out of context.
You are one who is taking verses out of context in your futile and scripturally unsound attempt at proving that God Almighty changes His mind.
I stated in my previous post I for one one have a difficult time worshipping a God who was at the whim of His creation
You replied: quote:
Do you have a difficult time honoring your father and your mother because they responded to your behavior and may have changed their plans in response to you? Does that mean they were completely "at your whim"?
Your reply gives great credence to what I and others who reject the false doctrine of Open Theism have been saying all along.
Open Theism is an attempt to lower an Omniscient and Omnipotent God to the level of man.
Honor is defined as High respect, as that shown for special merit; esteem
Honor may be bestowed upon and given to the creation.
Worship is defined as The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity
Worship is reserved only for The Creator.
I pray that one day you will understand the difference.
_____________________________
Ronald Reagan said, "I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born."
Similarly, I've noticed that everyone who preaches Limited Atonement are already saved.
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RE: Prophecy - 3/11/2010 4:15:45 PM
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SamsonUSA
Posts: 2016
Joined: 10/5/2008
From: Laguna Beach. Presently an Arizona desert dweller
Status: offline
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quote:
I wouldn't say God is at our whim. I would say that he has chosen to involve his creation in his plans in a meaningful way.
I would agree, and believe Scripture makes this very apparent.
What I do not agree with, and believe Scripture makes very apparent, is the notion that God does not have complete and absolute foreknowledge of every freewill choice His creation will ever make.
_____________________________
Ronald Reagan said, "I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born."
Similarly, I've noticed that everyone who preaches Limited Atonement are already saved.
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RE: Prophecy - 3/11/2010 4:16:51 PM
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drmark
Posts: 5782
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
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quote:
Given the choice of becoming a Calvinist or an Open Theist I'll gladly choose to embrace Calvinism. Are you familiar with "middle knowledge" as a possible concept to reconcile divie omniscience and human free will?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Prophecy - 3/11/2010 7:24:27 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2476
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
I would agree, and believe Scripture makes this very apparent.
What I do not agree with, and believe Scripture makes very apparent, is the notion that God does not have complete and absolute foreknowledge of every freewill choice His creation will ever make.
Since you quote Mr. Frame in your signature - do you likewise believe that God not only foreknew, but also predetermined those choices? That is, God decided what those choices would be, along with knowing them?
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RE: Prophecy - 3/12/2010 9:06:20 AM
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benjoseph
Posts: 205
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
benjoseph,
quote:
You can't overrule multitudes of stories of God actually changing his mind in response to people by taking this verse out of context.
You are one who is taking verses out of context in your futile and scripturally unsound attempt at proving that God Almighty changes His mind. how so?
quote:
I stated in my previous post I for one one have a difficult time worshipping a God who was at the whim of His creation
You replied: quote:
Do you have a difficult time honoring your father and your mother because they responded to your behavior and may have changed their plans in response to you? Does that mean they were completely "at your whim"?
Your reply gives great credence to what I and others who reject the false doctrine of Open Theism have been saying all along. oops
quote:
Open Theism is an attempt to lower an Omniscient and Omnipotent God to the level of man. No, it's an attempt to show that God is living, personal, and free in his will, rather than a frozen mathematical abstraction or a wooden block with an infinity symbol carved on it.
quote:
Honor is defined as High respect, as that shown for special merit; esteem
Honor may be bestowed upon and given to the creation.
Worship is defined as The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity
Worship is reserved only for The Creator.
My point was that just because God changes his plans in reaction to our behavior does not mean he is subject to us rather than us to him. You're parents changed their plans in response to your behavior yet you still were subject to them. You also didn't think they were less worthy of your honor simply because they reacted to you. You probably had MORE respect for them if they changed their minds in response to you for the right reasons.
God says he can change his plans in response to your behavior as well. He says your future rewards are like clay in his hands and he can squish 'em and squeeze 'em and do whatever he thinks is best based on your current behavior. Does this make him less worthy of honor and worship? Does this mean that God is at our whim? Shouldn't we have MORE respect for God because he CAN change his mind about our future rewards?
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RE: Prophecy - 3/12/2010 9:10:37 AM
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benjoseph
Posts: 205
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just in case... when I said,quote:
It's like, "Oh Samson... If you really loved me you would stop asking me questions about Hezekiah..." I was referring to Samson and Delilah, not to SamsonUSA.
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RE: Prophecy, Free Will, Foreknowledge? - 3/12/2010 1:29:47 PM
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cih92
Posts: 240
Joined: 4/18/2005
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How can we be responsible for our actions if God foreknows everything that is going to happen in the future including all of our decisions?
If we act according to our desires and our desires are not caused in an inappropriate way, then we are responsible for our actions.
A desire caused in an inappropriate way would be a desire that originated from brainwashing, deception, and so on.
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RE: Prophecy, Free Will, Foreknowledge? - 3/12/2010 2:00:43 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 1040
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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If absolute foreknowledge of God is true, it is then impossible for God to originate a simple volition new to himself. All the volitions He ever originated, all that He ever will originate, were known to Him from all eternity. If this is true, then His volitions are as eternal as He is. If they are as eternal as He is, then He could not have originated them; He could not have originated them any more than he could originate Himself.
More-over, if God did not originate his volitions, He cannot have a free-will, because with free will, one is able to originate his own volitions. If God does not have a free-will, then he cannot be a person (persons have free will [human or divine]). If God is not a person, then He must be impersonal (if He really exists at all). If He is impersonal, then he must be without consciousness. If He is without consciousness but has a real existence, then He must be without moral character or even sympathy and compassion.
If this is true, then we have a god which is not worthy of praise or worship.
However, we know that all of this is not true, but some are arguing the absolute foreknowledge of God as true. Those who claim the absolute foreknowledge of God to be true, how do you explain this outcome?
(Idea from "Divine nescience of future contingencies a necessity" By Lorenzo Dow McCabe")
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RE: Prophecy, Free Will, Foreknowledge? - 3/12/2010 2:40:57 PM
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cih92
Posts: 240
Joined: 4/18/2005
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quote:
More-over, if God did not originate his volitions, He cannot have a free-will, because with free will, one is able to originate his own volitions.
I interpret "originate his volitions" to mean "to cause to come into existence."
God doesn't need to originate His volitions in order to have free will. His volitions proceed His from will and His character. Moreover, He takes delight in His volitions. Hence, He has free will.
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RE: Prophecy, Free Will, Foreknowledge? - 3/12/2010 2:41:58 PM
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caur
Posts: 230
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Hi Diolectic,
Am I assuming correctly that you are assigning human free-will to God? Our free-will operates in the framework of God's sovereignty. He is not a man. He is a unique being with none His like. God's free will and personhood are not defined according to our standards or reasoning but by His standards and reasoning.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
If absolute foreknowledge of God is true, it is then impossible for God to originate a simple volition new to himself. All the volitions He ever originated, all that He ever will originate, were known to Him from all eternity. If this is true, then His volitions are as eternal as He is. If they are as eternal as He is, then He could not have originated them; He could not have originated them any more than he could originate Himself.
More-over, if God did not originate his volitions, He cannot have a free-will, because with free will, one is able to originate his own volitions. If God does not have a free-will, then he cannot be a person (persons have free will [human or divine]). If God is not a person, then He must be impersonal (if He really exists at all). If He is impersonal, then he must be without consciousness. If He is without consciousness but has a real existence, then He must be without moral character or even sympathy and compassion.
If this is true, then we have a god which is not worthy of praise or worship.
However, we know that all of this is not true, but some are arguing the absolute foreknowledge of God as true. Those who claim the absolute foreknowledge of God to be true, how do you explain this outcome?
(Idea from "Divine nescience of future contingencies a necessity" By Lorenzo Dow McCabe")
_____________________________
Jesus is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.
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RE: Prophecy, Free Will, Foreknowledge? - 3/12/2010 5:16:04 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 205
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quote:
ORIGINAL: caur
Hi Diolectic,
Am I assuming correctly that you are assigning human free-will to God? That made me human laugh out human loud.
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RE: Prophecy, Free Will, Foreknowledge? - 3/12/2010 5:43:23 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 205
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cih92
God doesn't need to originate His volitions in order to have free will. I disagree. The will is one's ability to originate volitions. That's why Diolectic said,quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
with free will, one is able to originate his own volitions.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cih92
His volitions proceed His from will and His character. God's volitions and moral character are a result of God's use of God's free will.
quote:
Moreover, He takes delight in His volitions. Hence, He has free will. The will is not called free on the condition that one's choices are delightful. The will is called free because it is free to choose this or that. A person who makes a choice that makes them miserable is still using free will.
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